Comics Debate & Discourse: How To Be a Hero By Being An Ally

[liminal_lad]

Read the past few pages of this thread.

I really tried. I tried to make empathy easy.

I did. Some of these other guys seemed like they wanted to have an actual discussion. Which is one of the huge problems with message boards. It just turns into a free-for-all with everyone restating their positions and no one listening. Sorry if that felt like a personal attack.

[the4thpip]

Their attempts at inclusion are driven by a desire to increase the size of the comics market and this ultimately benefits all of us.

I see that as one (possible) part of it, though sales figures tell us that it very rarely seems to be working.

The other aspect is that we now have more female, queer, black, Asian, Turkish, Hispanic, Muslim and various combinations of all those groups as comic book creators than ever before in the history of the American comic book. Doesn't it make sense that they would want to put more of themselves into their work?

[Mark]

Do you ever think that maybe t going into conversations with such a negative attitude, assuming the worst of the other party, and assuming people won't listen you might be a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Sometimes, on the other hand what I could have said other that what I feel? Anything else would have been dishonest. If I am negative about an issue or a comic or the way a comic character has been written and say so here then I know for certainty that I'm going to be hit for it. That's the way it's always been here and the only real difference now is that the viciousness has been reduced. But knowing that should I not post my opinion? Or limit it someway? Someone told me once that if you state a negative opinion more than three times it's bitching. Who came up with that rule I don't know but it's very much enforced here and the more it is, the more my opinion is minimized, scorned or ridiculed the more I'm going to state it.
The whole push now from the big 2 is to get more and more new readers and to do that they are doing things to established characters that I do not like and if I say that dislike out loud more than others feel I should I'm subject to attack. Enough of that and I do get defensive proactively because after so many attacks I don't really care if anyone agrees with me or not. There's no point trying to be reasonable or patient or persuasive because it never seems told do me any good. So sometimes I'm not.

[Mark]

I've read the issue. He kills a kid. And as far as I know he never faces any real consequences for it.

That seems to be very common. I doubt either Namor or Strange will face any real justice for the lives they've taken.

[liminal_lad]

An aside: When you say "straight white men, this isn't about you" isn't that kind of exactly what you're saying? Can't we write about how to be a better ally without singling anyone out? Or couldn't we just say "If you feel offended or personally attacked, remember part of being an ally is to listen before you speak and ask how you can help," or something similar?

Naming one group, even if they're seen as the "most frequent offenders," inherently makes it an us-vs-them situation.

[hunter_peterson]

Hold on a second there.

What kind of research exactly would you prescribe to prove that kind of thing?

Wouldn't it be much easier to listen to the people who say that it affects them negatively, as they have no reason in the world to lie to you about it?

Yes, if they were in large enough numbers to be actually concerning. That was certainly not the case in the example I gave before it got picked up by news websites. And it's easy- a study definitively confirming that comic book covers could cause harm in any way to any group of people. The people complaining basically said it wasn't to their taste so it should be banned; theirs aren't the only tastes that need to be considered. Something has to actually cause harm to a significant portion of the population before banning is a reasonable suggestion.

[Mark]

I see that as one (possible) part of it, though sales figures tell us that it very rarely seems to be working.

The other aspect is that we now have more female, queer, black, Asian, Turkish, Hispanic, Muslim and various combinations of all those groups as comic book creators than ever before in the history of the American comic book. Doesn't it make sense that they would want to put more of themselves into their work?

It does and I welcome that. But treating Thor as I think he's being treated to introduce a new female hero is not in my opinion the best way to do it. When the new Ms. Marvel was introduce they didn't send Carol into a self destructive tail spin.

[the4thpip]

It does and I welcome that. But treating Thor as I think he's being treated to introduce a new female hero is not in my opinion the best way to do it. When the new Ms. Marvel was introduce they didn't send Carol into a self destructive tail spin.

Come to think of it, hadn't they announced a series called "Unworthy" to focus on Odinson? Those plans seem to be scrapped. I think the reason we're not getting tales of how heroic Odinson can be without the hammer is not the fault of female Thor, but of editorial decisions that may have something to do with Secret War coming up.

It's not like Thor hasn't been there before: He's been replaced by a construction worker, an alien, and a frog. This is just the first time it's a woman.

[Shawn Hopkins]

Come to think of it, hadn't they announced a series called "Unworthy" to focus on Odinson? Those plans seem to be scrapped.

It's not like Thor hasn't been there before: He's been replaced by a construction worker, an alien, and a frog. This is just the first time it's a woman.

It's says a lot that people have more problems with Thor temporarily being a woman than Thor temporarily being a frog.

[Mark]

It's says a lot that people have more problems with Thor temporarily being a woman than Thor temporarily being a frog.

But Thor's not a woman, a woman has simply taken his name and his hammer. I don't really mind that and I think it's an interesting storyline to go with. But at the same time Thor himself is being treated badly in my opinion.

I like strong female characters and I read books with them. Anyone here read Knights of the Dinner Table? Filled with strong female characters and very innovative plot lines. Siren's by George Perez? Confusing but so far strong characters. A regular character shouldn't have to be down graded to introduce a new one. I do object when ever that happens. I objected when Bendis treated Tigra badly to build up the Hood.

[Shawn Hopkins]

But Thor's not a woman, a woman has simply taken his name and his hammer. I don't really mind that and I think it's an interesting storyline to go with. But at the same time Thor himself is being treated badly in my opinion.

I like strong female characters and I read books with them. Anyone here read Knights of the Dinner Table? Filled with strong female characters and very innovative plot lines. Siren's by George Perez? Confusing but so far strong characters. A regular character shouldn't have to be down graded to introduce a new one. I do object when ever that happens. I objected when Bendis treated Tigra badly to build up the Hood.

Thor isn't being treated badly. He's just getting a new storyline where he has to seek redemption and recover his mantle. He'll eventually get it back, the female Thor will die or become Thorella or something, and everything will return to the staus quo. The stand-in storyline is a hoary old comic trope, let's not pretend we're unfamiliar with how this works.

[Crimson Knight]

It was great moment, but i doubt it prevents suicide or depression.

It might help.

I have depression, and I have two disabilities, so seeing myself in this character or that character can be good, can be nice.

So, seeing this show, or that, with this or that, and then I'm like 'That's a bit like me' and I like that.

But, to answer an earlier question, every person, or 'side', has 100 % right to feel this way or that, and express it in a calm, or passionate, respectful manner.

Neither less, nor more, not as far as I'm concerned.

[Michael P]

Perhaps not monopolized, but certainly led. For the same reason that conversations about science should be led by scientists.

[Crimson Knight]

I agree with pip on this one. It's a kids fantasy, and it was originally not so gender exclusive.

For instance, Mary Marvel, even though she was certainly subjected to the gender stereotypes of her time, had a more positive portayal in her original run than most things D.C. has done with her in the last 15 years. Such as treating her like a joke, dirtying her up, making her a dominatrix. All things that seem to indicate a dislike of the character. The idea that she could be revamped in a way that she could again become a popular character for young girls seems to have never been considered, as if that potential audience has been completely written off.

It only started to get grossly sexual when people stopped outgrowing comics as a rule and adult male fans started hanging on.



I can agree that there can be male, female spaces like gyms and restrooms, as long as those aren't trans-exclusionary.

But are you seriously saying that superhero comics should be a male-only space? If so, who gets to decide that? The people making the comics? The companies that own them? A vocal minority of aggressive, gate-keeping male fans?

I'm not saying that, no, calm down, mon ami.

All I was saying is having, not to do with comics, a male only, or female only, space, is nice, long as there are unisex, you know, mixes otherwise.

And, are you aiming that at me, assuming I'm male, or targeting me, and calling me gate-keeping, and aggressive?

Tone down your language a bit, man, there's really no need to use a lot of it, even if there's a reason to get passionate.

Anger doesn't need to be here, alright?

[Jeff Brady]

Yes. I do.

But, but, but...coversations about white people are monopolized by white people!

No one lost anything by shutting up, listening, and learning.