Comics Debate & Discourse: How To Be a Hero By Being An Ally

[Mark]

I have no problem with this argument in general. I think it is fine to show people that our society is full of different types of people.

However, this is not what we are seeing in the books. We are not getting a diverse set of characters. We are getting a specific type of representation of certain groups. Any character from "oppressed" groups must be presented in the most positive way with no character flaws. The Wonder Woman creative team spurred negative reactions from the politically minded when they kept the Amazons true to their mythological nature and had them rape and murder men to populate their island. That character flaw made those characters interesting, but the collective response from the politically minded was that Amazons could not be so cruel or imperfect.

So while I would agree that we should have only white men be heroes and only non-white people be villains, we also should not create a situation in which only white men can be villains and any other group can never have any negative trait at all.

I was one of those people who objected and it wasn't because I was politically minded but because I had grown up seeing the Amazon's portrayed as an enlightened, advanced civilization and they continued that way through the Perez era. Then amazon's attack reduced them to an advanced bloodthirsty group that would cut the heads of men and Azzarello portrayed them as a bronze age culture that regularly raped and murdered men and traded male babies or just killed them (it was hard to tell), I thought that the amazon's I grew up with were just as interesting. It wasn't political on my part. I also didn't like the idea that Zeus was Diana's father.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

12 Years A Slave was better received than Selma because it still have the white man giving governance of of the black man's freedom. Selma wasn't a well received by certain groups because they didn't see enough white people telling the blacks it was okay. A new kind of "Magic Negro" but for white people.

LBJ is a liberal holy cow.

[Mark]

If they were significant, they wouldn't be in the minority.

significant parts of the minority groups. Just being in a minority does not make you a noble being.

[Scarlet Frost]

The only reason they would mention it is shock value and clicks, minus the KKK of course. I doubt they care, why would they?
Sacrlet rost:

Teh only that allows and does not allow the Panther is the market.

Dude, seriously. You're not saying anything.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

Please rethink the logic of that question.



There's probably a word or two missing here.

The only thing that allows or does not allow the Panther to succeed is the market.
Please rethink the logic of that question.

Please rethink why perfection should be a goal.

[Jeff Brady]

I was one of those people who objected and it wasn't because I was politically minded but because I had grown up seeing the Amazon's portrayed as an enlightened, advanced civilization and they continued that way through the Perez era. Then amazon's attack reduced them to an advanced bloodthirsty group that would cut the heads of men and Azzarello portrayed them as a bronze age culture that regularly raped and murdered men and traded male babies or just killed them (it was hard to tell), I thought that the amazon's I grew up with were just as interesting. It wasn't political on my part.

Everything is political, whether or not you want it to be, whether or not you're concious of it.

[the4thpip]

I do not think supporting someone means you ought to accept vitriol and abuse. I also do not think that having a valid complaint means you get a pass on being abusive. If a group spends a great deal of time attacking its supporters, I do not see why those supporters should stick around. The group makes it clear that what is wanted is not their support, just the appearance of it.

A supporter is not gonna get "vitriol and abuse."

But if you're mansplaining, and whitesplaining, and straightsplaining and confuse that with support... chile, you better duck and cover.

And if you're using other people's struggle as a stage for yourself to stroke your own ego no matter whether you actually help or harm the course, you better be prepared to get the hook.

[Mark]

Everything is political, whether or not you want it to be, whether or not you're concious of it.

No, I disagree. I can dislike a story direction without being political. I didn't like the Great Gatsby and there was nothing political about my dislike of the book.

[Jeff Brady]

Please rethink why perfection should be a goal.

Are you serious?

Because that's how things get better for everyone.

[Kieran_Frost]

The message of being a hero BY BEING AN ALLY has certainly been lost on many here...

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

A supporter is not gonna get "vitriol and abuse."

But if you're mansplaining, and whitesplaining, and straightsplaining and confuse that with support... chile, you better duck and cover.

So swallow the whole package right away, no alliance on just certain issues?

[Jeff Brady]

No, I disagree. I can dislike a story direction without being political. I didn't like the Great Gatsby and there was nothing political about my dislike of the book.

That just proves my point.

[Arundel Armor Hunter]

Are you serious?

Because that's how things get better for everyone.

Chasing perfection was how things got worse for everyone in dictatorships. No other states declare perfect social harmony as a goal.

[Scarlet Frost]

The only thing that allows or does not allow the Panther to succeed is the market.
Please rethink the logic of that question.

Please rethink why perfection should be a goal.

Which market is it that you speak? There are plenty of markets that come into play regarding the Black Panther movie.

Also, perfection isn't a goal, it's a journey.

[the4thpip]

I have no problem with this argument in general. I think it is fine to show people that our society is full of different types of people.

However, this is not what we are seeing in the books. We are not getting a diverse set of characters. We are getting a specific type of representation of certain groups. Any character from "oppressed" groups must be presented in the most positive way with no character flaws. (...)

Have you read Loki, Agent of Asgard?
He's arguably Marvel's most high-profile queer character, and they don't come more tarnished than the God of Lies.
Phyla-Vell somehow managed to be both arrogant and insecure. Her girlfriend Moondragon is borderline psychotic.
Destiny and Mystique are terrorists with blood on their hands.

Northstar, their first gay hero, was created as an insufferable jerk. He's softened a bit, but he is still an arrogant ass.

The "heroes" in Milestone's Blood Syndicate were all minorities, and they included a crack addict and a teenage parent.

Over at DC, Scandal Savage is both a lesbian and a killer. So is her girlfriend, Knockout. Renée Montoya is an alcoholic.

What books do you read to get the impression that all minority characters are perfect little gems?