Comics Debate & Discourse: How To Be a Hero By Being An Ally

**the4thpip** · 03-21-2015, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Matt A

I don't know why you're assuming the oppressed Group A doesn't know what Group B is thinking. There are always going to be differences of opinion on tactical choices. (We can't plan a family reunion without arguing on methods, and we like each other!) That doesn't mean that they aren't aware of the majority mindset.

One kind of has to to navigate society and survive.

Also, the "-splaining" meme is not about Group A explaining their needs to Group B. It's about Group A explaining Group B's needs to Group B.

...

I think I also got lost in who is A and who is B.

**lancerman** · 03-21-2015, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Scarlet Frost

I'm confused as to these Group A and B are because they both sound like each other.

They are different. But it's really a problem of people being rigid. One group is saying "I don't like the status quo of this type of art, lets change it to the way I like it". The other group is saying, "I like this type of art the way it is, don't try to change what I like".

Realistically comics is a huge medium. Both sides can find what they are looking for.

**the4thpip** · 03-21-2015, 01:45 PM

Let's just call one group Group ( ) and the other Group ( .... ); it'll be easier!

**GlennSimpson** · 03-21-2015, 01:51 PM

I actually meant for "Group A" and "Group B" to be either side. The important part is that once someone who fits one group demographically has established that he/she supports the goals of the other group, it would be kinda polite and effective to LISTEN to that person, because they "know the enemy", rather than attacking that person for not being 100% on board with individual tactics.

**Matt A** · 03-21-2015, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by GlennSimpson

Because when the different opinion on tactics is suggested by the Group B person, it is often attacked, not considered.

That's not been my experience. I've found that often, people who are used to having their opinion automatically agreed with because they're white or male or straight have a gigantic problem when people who aren't white or male or straight disagree with them, especially in groups, and then choose to recode the disagreement as disrespect.

Not saying that's what happened in your case, just speaking generally. Food for thought.

**Mark** · 03-21-2015, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Scarlet Frost

Then you should probably take a look at what many Republicans are doing.

That's politics, not morality. One using the other doesn't mean that they are both the same.

**Mark** · 03-21-2015, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by lancerman

They are different. But it's really a problem of people being rigid. One group is saying "I don't like the status quo of this type of art, lets change it to the way I like it". The other group is saying, "I like this type of art the way it is, don't try to change what I like".

Realistically comics is a huge medium. Both sides can find what they are looking for.

Not if what they are looking for is in the exact same place.

**Matt A** · 03-21-2015, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by GlennSimpson

I actually meant for "Group A" and "Group B" to be either side. The important part is that once someone who fits one group demographically has established that he/she supports the goals of the other group, it would be kinda polite and effective to LISTEN to that person, because they "know the enemy", rather than attacking that person for not being 100% on board with individual tactics.

But again, people who are in the oppressed minority group don't need to be schooled on how the oppressors think. We know. We have to know in order to survive in society. The way to get ahead is to act as much like the oppressor as possible. It's not some mystery that we just can't figure out, we learned it a long time ago. On the other hand, people who are in the majority class get to choose whether to even think about our contexts, let alone understand them. Usually, they (we) choose to look the other way until it's impossible to ignore.

**Rene Narciso** · 03-21-2015, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by lancerman

They are different. But it's really a problem of people being rigid. One group is saying "I don't like the status quo of this type of art, lets change it to the way I like it". The other group is saying, "I like this type of art the way it is, don't try to change what I like".

Realistically comics is a huge medium. Both sides can find what they are looking for.

Comics are a little more problematic than other media in this case. By comics, most people mean "American superhero comics published by Marvel and DC". It's great when we have more diverse characters in The Walking Dead, The Authority, The Invisibles, etc. but most people feel that those characters will never have the same iconic strength as Superman and Spider-Man. This supposedly huge medium is more or less restricted to 40-50 characters that are handed down from generation to generation, so people feel that having diverse characters and greater sensitivity associated with the Batman franchise is a bigger deal than having Michonne, or Apollo and the Midnighter, or Lord Fanny. So the fight over what comics should represent is fought over a small turf.

**Scarlet Frost** · 03-21-2015, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by lancerman

They are different. But it's really a problem of people being rigid. One group is saying "I don't like the status quo of this type of art, lets change it to the way I like it". The other group is saying, "I like this type of art the way it is, don't try to change what I like".

Realistically comics is a huge medium. Both sides can find what they are looking for.

But which group is saying which? I'm confused as to which group is trying to get which group's attention for what reason, ya dig?

**lancerman** · 03-21-2015, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by Rene Narciso

Comics are a little more problematic than other media in this case. By comics, most people mean "American superhero comics published by Marvel and DC". It's great when we have more diverse characters in The Walking Dead, The Authority, The Invisibles, etc. but most people feel that those characters will never have the same iconic strength as Superman and Spider-Man. This supposedly huge medium is more or less restricted to 40-50 characters that are handed down from generation to generation, so people feel that having diverse characters and greater sensitivity associated with the Batman franchise is a bigger deal than having Michonne, or Apollo and the Midnighter, or Lord Fanny. So the fight over what comics should represent is fought over a small turf.

Well that's a much bigger problem with the creative of the industry than anything else. How many mainstream entertainment mediums and genres still rely on characters and brands that were created in between the late 30's and mid 60's? Most tv shows and none superhero movies aren't. There's always new original best selling books. The only thing I can really even think of are soap operas. And even those change characters generationally and change focuses.

The fact that the bulk of the market is dominated by Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern Spider-Man, X-Men, Avengers and characters that spin off those is very telling. And it's not good. The blame for that has nothing to do with the audience either. It's the publishers.

**Scarlet Frost** · 03-21-2015, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by GlennSimpson

I actually meant for "Group A" and "Group B" to be either side. The important part is that once someone who fits one group demographically has established that he/she supports the goals of the other group, it would be kinda polite and effective to LISTEN to that person, because they "know the enemy", rather than attacking that person for not being 100% on board with individual tactics.

It would be easier to get points across if the other was not seen as "the enemy".

**lancerman** · 03-21-2015, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by Scarlet Frost

But which group is saying which? I'm confused as to which group is trying to get which group's attention for what reason, ya dig?

I don't think they are trying to get either's attention. I think both are looking for things from the major comic publishers and don't really care much about what the other group thinks, to be completely honest. I think both "groups" are completely understandable in their feelings and motives.

Personally I just think it's a much better course of action for people to support the comics they like and that represents their ideals and what entertains them, and to not support what they don't like and what offends them. That way at least a market can be created to cater to both needs. But most people would rather read Superman and Batman and then argue over how they should be portrayed.

**Scarlet Frost** · 03-21-2015, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mark

That's politics, not morality. One using the other doesn't mean that they are both the same.

No, but I'm seeing Republicans trying to make having a certain set of morals as a political statement.

**Stony** · 03-21-2015, 02:30 PM

Just a few things:

1. Keep it civil. Stick to discussing the topic, not each other's motivations.
2. Keep it on topic if you can. There is obviously overlap with a variety of other issues, but try and bring it back to the topic at hand.
3. Don't repeat the same arguments. The thread just becomes circular. If you've made your point, leave it at that.

Thread: Comics Debate & Discourse: How To Be a Hero By Being An Ally

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