Another bit on Wonder Woman: Earth One.

[SiegePerilous02]

Does anyone really think of the story of Pinocchio as being too remote or inhuman? Or that he is somehow less than human after the Blue Fairy transforms him because it was through magical means? Or that the love between him and Geppetto isn't real because sperm wasn't involved in his creation?

The "clay origin doesn't make much sense" crap is getting old. I'm interested in seeing the approach he's going for, and I doubt it will be as cliche as her being yet another bastard of Zeus, but it just blows my mind how people get so confused by the clay birth that they feel the need to fix it. It's a magical origin for a magical girl hero aimed at children. Get over it.

The "feminist sci-fi" comment gives me mixed feelings. On the one hand, it clearly shows that the Amazons are going to be innovative, which absolutely thrills me, and it sounds like this WW isn't going to be constantly smothered by the presence of the Olympians. On the other hand, his "Hercules is just a man" comments make me wonder if he's ditching the mythological elements entirely and establishing them as just stories in-universe, which I wouldn't like too much either.

[Agent Z]

Does anyone really think of the story of Pinocchio as being too remote or inhuman? Or that he is somehow less than human after the Blue Fairy transforms him because it was through magical means? Or that the love between him and Geppetto isn't real because sperm wasn't involved in his creation?

The "clay origin doesn't make much sense" crap is getting old. I'm interested in seeing the approach he's going for, and I doubt it will be as cliche as her being yet another bastard of Zeus, but it just blows my mind how people get so confused by the clay birth that they feel the need to fix it. It's a magical origin for a magical girl hero aimed at children. Get over it.

The "feminist sci-fi" comment gives me mixed feelings. On the one hand, it clearly shows that the Amazons are going to be innovative, which absolutely thrills me, and it sounds like this WW isn't going to be constantly smothered by the presence of the Olympians. On the other hand, his "Hercules is just a man" comments make me wonder if he's ditching the mythological elements entirely and establishing them as just stories in-universe, which I wouldn't like too much either.

It sounds to me like the Olympians and such characters will exist but there will be some difference from the source material. Some of the art work released shows Hippolyta beating Heracles which never happened in the myths.

[Auguste Dupin]

Does anyone really think of the story of Pinocchio as being too remote or inhuman? Or that he is somehow less than human after the Blue Fairy transforms him because it was through magical means? Or that the love between him and Geppetto isn't real because sperm wasn't involved in his creation?

The "clay origin doesn't make much sense" crap is getting old. I'm interested in seeing the approach he's going for, and I doubt it will be as cliche as her being yet another bastard of Zeus, but it just blows my mind how people get so confused by the clay birth that they feel the need to fix it. It's a magical origin for a magical girl hero aimed at children. Get over it.

The "feminist sci-fi" comment gives me mixed feelings. On the one hand, it clearly shows that the Amazons are going to be innovative, which absolutely thrills me, and it sounds like this WW isn't going to be constantly smothered by the presence of the Olympians. On the other hand, his "Hercules is just a man" comments make me wonder if he's ditching the mythological elements entirely and establishing them as just stories in-universe, which I wouldn't like too much either.

You will notice that Pinochio's story is all about how he isn't a human being and that, by the time he actually does become one, the story ends, before we can actually assess wether or not we feel he's too "remote".

[LoneNecromancer]

I wonder if Morrison feels that God forming Adam out of clay makes him creepy and too remote.

"I'm not sure if this is a good thing to add to the discussion? Could easily become about whether if it's just a story or not, also if Grant's an atheist or not."

Grant's personal beliefs don't come into it.

The thing is if you look at mythologies from all over the world, the idea of real humans being formed from clay, trees, the ocean, etc, are part and parcel of creation myths. In Greek mythology, you have Galatea being formed by Pygmalion from marble and Deucalion and Pyrrha bring the human race back after the deluge by creating them from rocks.

Whether you believe in Adam and Eve as a fact or whether just think of them as a mythological fable, doesn't matter. What matters is do you empathize less with Adam because he was formed from clay?

Over the years, we have had many creators and fans repeat over and over that Diana's clay origin makes her less accessible because she was formed from clay and given life by a god. But this assertion is never made against other characters who have similar origins. Why?

How many times have I responded to this argument of "is Adam unrelatable" now?

Those creation myths work under the assumption that the *entire* human race is made from clay/wood/semen whatever. Those were cultures where clay or wood were one of the most important aspects of life and as such a lot of their sacred art at the time would've also been made from clay figurines/pots, or wooden carvings or trees. It's symbolic. All is one. Circle of life. We are born from dirt and return to it.

But in the DCU, humans aren't made of clay or wood or anything. Therefore, Wonder Woman being the *sole* person made from clay is what starts giving her golem/Pinocchio/robot AI subtext of "am I a real human". It's not how the myths work, and that's probably why Grant has a problem with it.

[Hawk80]

How many times have I responded to this argument of "is Adam unrelatable" now?

Those creation myths work under the assumption that the *entire* human race is made from clay/wood/semen whatever. Those were cultures where clay or wood were one of the most important aspects of life and as such a lot of their sacred art at the time would've also been made from clay figurines/pots, or wooden carvings or trees. It's symbolic. All is one. Circle of life. We are born from dirt and return to it.

But in the DCU, humans aren't made of clay or wood or anything. Therefore, Wonder Woman being the *sole* person made from clay is what starts giving her golem/Pinocchio/robot AI subtext of "am I a real human". It's not how the myths work, and that's probably why Grant has a problem with it.

I have a problem figuring how an alien (let's say superman) could be so human-like. I mean, he comes from a distant planet, right? I would like this thing to be fixed...

[Agent Z]

How many times have I responded to this argument of "is Adam unrelatable" now?

Those creation myths work under the assumption that the *entire* human race is made from clay/wood/semen whatever. Those were cultures where clay or wood were one of the most important aspects of life and as such a lot of their sacred art at the time would've also been made from clay figurines/pots, or wooden carvings or trees. It's symbolic. All is one. Circle of life. We are born from dirt and return to it.

But in the DCU, humans aren't made of clay or wood or anything. Therefore, Wonder Woman being the *sole* person made from clay is what starts giving her golem/Pinocchio/robot AI subtext of "am I a real human". It's not how the myths work, and that's probably why Grant has a problem with it.

These myths are established as facts not fiction within the context of the DCU, so a human being made from clay really isn't that odd.

[Auguste Dupin]

These myths are established as facts not fiction within the context of the DCU, so a human being made from clay really isn't that odd.

Except we know they're not all accurate. Unless you're willing to explain to me how the Greek Gods, the Christian God, and a few others all managed to create mankind in different manners at the same time.

[LoneNecromancer]

I have a problem figuring how an alien (let's say superman) could be so human-like. I mean, he comes from a distant planet, right? I would like this thing to be fixed...

Krypton was designed as a symbolic planet of the future for humans (and in the original plan, was in fact the future, hence Man of Tomorrow). That's a fairly basic concept of Superman, that he's helping bring us towards a utopian future.

Anyway, the universe is massive, whilst the odds are small it is in fact conceivable for life to manifest itself in similar ways.

These myths are established as facts not fiction within the context of the DCU, so a human being made from clay really isn't that odd.

Really? There are more creation myths than I can count, and we're going to say they're all real in the DCU?

We have gone into the past in plenty of DC comic books. Evolution is still what keeps the world ticking over there. Creation myths are largely regarded as symbolic and not literal as far as I'm aware.

[Agent Z]

Krypton was designed as a symbolic planet of the future for humans (and in the original plan, was in fact the future, hence Man of Tomorrow). That's a fairly basic concept of Superman, that he's helping bring us towards a utopian future.

Anyway, the universe is massive, whilst the odds are small it is in fact conceivable for life to manifest itself in similar ways.

And Diana's clay birth symbolises an infertile mother's desire for a child and how such a desire leads to a miracle.

[Hawk80]

Krypton was designed as a symbolic planet of the future for humans (and in the original plan, was in fact the future, hence Man of Tomorrow). That's a fairly basic concept of Superman, that he's helping bring us towards a utopian future.

Anyway, the universe is massive, whilst the odds are small it is in fact conceivable for life to manifest itself in similar ways.

I wasn't serious. Point was: if you don't get the made-from-clay part, it's not a flaw of the concept. It's just you not getting the made-from-clay part.

A human-like alien comes to earth and it's fine. Warrior princess was sculpted from clay and given life by the gods and it's also fine. Was fine for Adam, was fine for Galatea, was fine for Pandora and is fine for Wonder Woman. Is that simple.
If extraordinary birth circumstances contaminate the intrinsic humanity of a character, then half of the stories ever told need to be "fixed".

[Largo161]

How many times have I responded to this argument of "is Adam unrelatable" now?

Those creation myths work under the assumption that the *entire* human race is made from clay/wood/semen whatever. Those were cultures where clay or wood were one of the most important aspects of life and as such a lot of their sacred art at the time would've also been made from clay figurines/pots, or wooden carvings or trees. It's symbolic. All is one. Circle of life. We are born from dirt and return to it.

But in the DCU, humans aren't made of clay or wood or anything. Therefore, Wonder Woman being the *sole* person made from clay is what starts giving her golem/Pinocchio/robot AI subtext of "am I a real human". It's not how the myths work, and that's probably why Grant has a problem with it.

I don't see the logic here. Yeah, we know that humans aren't made of clay in the DC Universe, but we also know that gods can turn clay into humans in the DC Universe, if they so choose. Or at least they could in the Golden Age. So what...?

This is a matter of opinion and taste, but when Morrison says that her origin is creepy and remote I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that he means "creepy and remote in the minds of the general readership." And some of us are saying, "Not so fast..."

If Morrison is going to remove the supernatural/miracle elements from the origin, then I'm getting ready to give him the side-eye. (But I'm going to try to keep an open mind!)

[SiegePerilous02]

Diana's unconventional birth didn't make her less of a person than someone who came about due to a sperm coming together with an egg and spending time in a womb. She still had a soul, thoughts and feelings of her own, she still had relationships with people she loved and cared about. The DC universe has a sapient plant elemental and AIs with distinct personalities, like Red Tornado and the Metal Men. A flesh and blood human being coming about through magical means may not be "normal" by any realistic standards, but she's still human in all the ways that matter.

I'm not one of those who think the Zeus origin taints her beyond all recognition, and I'm open to seeing the DCCU's take on it, but I'm not crazy about it either. It seems like an attempt to destroy Diana's "otherness" by making her more conventional: if you aren't born the "correct" way, despite any of your other qualities, you don't matter and are cold and inhuman.

[Javier Velasco]

Science fiction, Fantasy writing etc are filled with non human characters who are more human and more relatable than the human characters surrounding them...

Wall-E
Adam Link
Data and the Holographic Doctor from Star Trek

So even if Diana were somehow to be perceived as non-human, that doesn't speak to being non-relatable.

I am glad that Grant has come along on this great discovery of WW, but we must remember that it is the same Grant M. who before he started researching the character, said that he short shifted her in Final Crisis because he always felt the character was "bogus" and "slightly artificial." Will she be less "artificial" as a magical test tube baby?

[SiegePerilous02]

Honestly, I found clay birth Diana more warm and relateable than Gary Stus like King Mob, so my standards for "cold and remote" are probably different from Morrison's.

[LoneNecromancer]

I wasn't serious. Point was: if you don't get the made-from-clay part, it's not a flaw of the concept. It's just you not getting the made-from-clay part.

A human-like alien comes to earth and it's fine. Warrior princess was sculpted from clay and given life by the gods and it's also fine. Was fine for Adam, was fine for Galatea, was fine for Pandora and is fine for Wonder Woman. Is that simple.
If extraordinary birth circumstances contaminate the intrinsic humanity of a character, then half of the stories ever told need to be "fixed".

Right, yeah. First off, Superman is an alien. Everyone knows this. No one pretends he's a human (well, I guess *he* does on occasion, but he still knows he's an alien). His extraordinary arrival leads to him still being fully aware that he's not a human. He's also fully aware he does have that slight barrier with other humans as a result of, again, being an alien. Many stories have explored this barrier. I don't see the comparison, unless you're actually agreeing with Grant Morrison on WW's clay origin making her remote.

Again, in the mythology stories you cite, human creation stems from being created out of dirt/clay/wood whatever. Not one single person alone. Comparing WW to them is just something that doesn't make sense.

I don't see the logic here. Yeah, we know that humans aren't made of clay in the DC Universe, but we also know that gods can turn clay into humans in the DC Universe, if they so choose. Or at least they could in the Golden Age. So what...?

Well, if the gods are turning clay into humans when we know that's not what they're made off, that means there is clear subtext about them being different from other humans in a "am I a real person" kind of way. It's that basic.

This is a matter of opinion and taste, but when Morrison says that her origin is creepy and remote I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that he means "creepy and remote in the minds of the general readership." And some of us are saying, "Not so fast..."

And would you still be saying "not so fast" if you'd grown up with WW as having been Hippolyta's child with Zeus, and didn't have any nostalgia for the clay origin?