Another bit on Wonder Woman: Earth One.

[Agent Z]

I think he is being serious. The thing is that the clay-origins means Diana was manufactured, the 'creepy' factor comes in, when you realize how possible it is that there is more 'inside' Diana than anyone knows and it might not be a good thing.

It's like Superboy, we read stories about him for more than a decade before Lex Luthor showed up and revealed he had pre-programmed the boy to go bananas on command. The very same kind of thing could have been 'programmed' into Diana by any one of the gods that had a hand in her creation.

If such a thing had happened in a WW comic I'd agree with you but we've had stories about Diana acting of her own free will and outright refusing the demands of the gods for decades.

[Outside_85]

If such a thing had happened in a WW comic I'd agree with you but we've had stories about Diana acting of her own free will and outright refusing the demands of the gods for decades.

The issue is that we've also had the Olympians being portrayed as benevolent entities that only showed up when there was a problem Diana should solve for them. Also, we haven't really seen any of the Gods that were involved in Diana's creation be upset with her.
Now however the Gods are all in the grey area, all of them have the capacity to commit evil if it futhers their goals. Had the New 52 versions been in play since COIE, we could very well have seen something like Superboy happen to Diana.

[Agent Z]

The issue is that we've also had the Olympians being portrayed as benevolent entities that only showed up when there was a problem Diana should solve for them. Also, we haven't really seen any of the Gods that were involved in Diana's creation be upset with her.
Now however the Gods are all in the grey area, all of them have the capacity to commit evil if it futhers their goals. Had the New 52 versions been in play since COIE, we could very well have seen something like Superboy happen to Diana.

The Olympians weren't always benevolent pre-Flashpoint though. See Perez, Rucka and Simone.

[Hawk80]

The issue is that we've also had the Olympians being portrayed as benevolent entities that only showed up when there was a problem Diana should solve for them. Also, we haven't really seen any of the Gods that were involved in Diana's creation be upset with her.
Now however the Gods are all in the grey area, all of them have the capacity to commit evil if it futhers their goals. Had the New 52 versions been in play since COIE, we could very well have seen something like Superboy happen to Diana.

I don't understand. Are you saying that clay origin is problematic because, as a concept, is particularly prone to bad writing? And are you trying to prove this using an hypotetical preFP-new52 amalgam continuity?

[borntohula]

Then would you be ok with the removal of Krypton from Superman's past? I agree that characters are primarily defined by their life and not by their birth, but birth defines the mythology of a character. A pretty defining part, imo.

If there's a story, then I don't see a problem with it. Could'v been cool if he's escape was from New Genesis for example. Or he could might as well show up with nothing on from where he came. For me he'll still be like a foster child or refugee who grows up doing great things. Still a great character.

Same way I'd still like Diana for alot of what she does even if she isn't made out of clay.

And about Hippolyta having created Diana, Morrison says there's still a single mother thing in there. Which for me is her "Kents" or "I saw my parents die.", in a story he wants to be about, pacifism, alternative sexualities and stuff. Even a bit of bondage and bits on feminism, without it becoming female superiority (an aspect which Morrison has said to find a bit troublesome.) and constantly tying up women like in the first stories.

Oh well. Hopefully we'll see what he has cooked up soon enough.

Here's the podcast where he says the clay birth is a bit creepy. http://smodcast.com/episodes/more-with-morrison/

The sci fi bits sounds like it's due to the amazons having lived on an island for 7 000 years and perfected technology. So sadly no Kirby 4th world stuff

[borntohula]

According to this http://collectededitions.blogspot.se...tiversity.html WW: Earth 1 will be out this fall!!!

[Outside_85]

I don't understand. Are you saying that clay origin is problematic because, as a concept, is particularly prone to bad writing? And are you trying to prove this using an hypotetical preFP-new52 amalgam continuity?

It's not more prone to bad writing than anything else. The clay birth is problematic because Diana was created by a group of people that very likely could have had their own agendas for adding their aid.
And I am not using a hypothetical story, it happened, to Superboy, in the pages of John's Teen Titans.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think he is being serious. The thing is that the clay-origins means Diana was manufactured, the 'creepy' factor comes in, when you realize how possible it is that there is more 'inside' Diana than anyone knows and it might not be a good thing.

It's like Superboy, we read stories about him for more than a decade before Lex Luthor showed up and revealed he had pre-programmed the boy to go bananas on command. The very same kind of thing could have been 'programmed' into Diana by any one of the gods that had a hand in her creation.

Diana was never manufactured. If writers think there are creepy elements in in her origin, that's their hang up. I never would have considered Diana being some sort of sleeper agent for the Gods before you brought it up. And besides, how is Hippolyta using science to make a daughter (as that seems to be the direction Morrison is heading) any potentially less creepy? Maybe Hippolyta programs some shady stuff into her daughter while she's in an artificial womb or whatever. It's not like she and Aphrodite mapped out Diana's entire personality or anything when they created her, her life experiences were completely her own.

If a writer wanted to have Diana programmed by the Gods at her creation, that isn't something inherently wrong with the origin. It's the writers using it as a springboard for their own crappy ideas.

[Outside_85]

Diana was never manufactured.

You wouldn't call a number of deities holding hands to bring her to life and give her a number of specific attributes manufactured?

[Aioros22]

Does anyone really think of the story of Pinocchio as being too remote or inhuman? Or that he is somehow less than human after the Blue Fairy transforms him because it was through magical means? Or that the love between him and Geppetto isn't real because sperm wasn't involved in his creation?

Not at all. Those tales to me simbolize the notion that how you came to be is not as important as how you are. I never thought Geppeto`s love for his son was any less true. He still hand a hand in giving him life.

The "feminist sci-fi" comment gives me mixed feelings. On the one hand, it clearly shows that the Amazons are going to be innovative, which absolutely thrills me, and it sounds like this WW isn't going to be constantly smothered by the presence of the Olympians. On the other hand, his "Hercules is just a man" comments make me wonder if he's ditching the mythological elements entirely and establishing them as just stories in-universe, which I wouldn't like too much either.

I can`t complain much, given that it`s a WW story told (in which I do find interesting in meta-form) in a feminist pov without restraints.

But at the same time..it`s a red flag to me. I still think, to this day, that (and only some WW title writers seem to do this) writing the classically main antagonist in Hercules as "just a man" to the main character`s strenght of view - that you are supposed to show- is weak. If Hercules is "just a man" (and such notion simbolically and realistically doesn`t fly. It`s kind of like saying Superman is just a man. Well, even Batman, whose Morrison never wrote as "just a man" in his multi layered run) it cheapens the value of what the amazons have to say. How different are they of males who act upon females as "just a girl"? Where is the strenght behind the vision?

It`s a balsy take as expected from Morrison, considering that even her creator didn`t cheapened it that much, so I`ll definatly read it. Maybe it`s because I am male and Hercules is one of the biggest simbols of masculanity of all time so I admit the cheapening that happens on this title sometimes doesn`t win me over. All I have to say in my defense is that Pak and Lente writing "Love and Hate" at Marvel in their "Incredible Hercules" run did a wonderful job in ilustrating the war on sexes and the male/female anatogonism is a way that wasn`t a detritment in presentation to almost any character. Particularly Hercules alternative reality dream in a female utupia.

[Aioros22]

You wouldn't call a number of deities holding hands to bring her to life and give her a number of specific attributes manufactured?

In fiction we kind of give life to what we give powerful meaning. Geppeto could make chairs all day long but there`s no meaning behind it other than a single necessity in sitting down or standing on top.

[Javier Velasco]

Re: The clay origin. All of the Amazons were created from clay and brought to life by the gods. At least, that is according to Marston and Perez. Why single out Diana? Is the idea that both Marston and Perez's Amazons were creepy and remote?

[SiegePerilous02]

You wouldn't call a number of deities holding hands to bring her to life and give her a number of specific attributes manufactured?

The Perez version is a little more problematic with this, I agree. It was less of an issue in Marston's version, where all the Amazons were created from clay, so there wasn't anything remarkable about her and the Gods didn't map out a special destiny for her. She was on equal footing with the other Amazons when she won the Contest, which she decided to do for herself. I think the combination of the clay birth with the Gods planning her destiny gives the manufactured feel, but most of the creators and fans who criticize the origin only talk about Marston's take on it, and not Perez's. Maybe they're confusing the two. Perez having her be the only child on the island didn't help these matters.

But even then, the Gods were creating a new body for a existing soul. The woman who Hippolyta was in her past life was pregnant at the time of her death, so in a roundabout way Diana was conceived naturally. It's not like she had no ties to humanity whatsoever.

[Outside_85]

The Perez version is a little more problematic with this, I agree. It was less of an issue in Marston's version, where all the Amazons were created from clay, so there wasn't anything remarkable about her and the Gods didn't map out a special destiny for her. She was on equal footing with the other Amazons when she won the Contest, which she decided to do for herself. I think the combination of the clay birth with the Gods planning her destiny gives the manufactured feel, but most of the creators and fans who criticize the origin only talk about Marston's take on it, and not Perez's. Maybe they're confusing the two. Perez having her be the only child on the island didn't help these matters.

Well basically Perez just took the Marston origns, multiplied the deities involved with 6 and added horror to the backstory of the Amazons.
Both Perez's and Marstons were made of clay btw, I seem to recall an image of Aphordite sculpting them from Marstons book while Perez rose out of the waters of a like (meaning they were formed by the clay from the bottom).

In regards to Diana specifically, and if Morrison was only talking about the Marston origins, perhaps it's due to Aphrodite bringing Diana to life basically on a whim. She knows Hippolyta wanted a child, saw a nice statue she had made of her wish, snapped her fingers and there you go; Diana. I dont recall there being given a reason why Aphrodite actually did this. As you said, the Gods under Perez had a plan with Diana, Marston didn't seem to.

But even then, the Gods were creating a new body for a existing soul. The woman who Hippolyta was in her past life was pregnant at the time of her death, so in a roundabout way Diana was conceived naturally. It's not like she had no ties to humanity whatsoever.

Well thats one thing I have been wondering; Did Perez's Amazons even know they had lived before? If they had, what would that even do for them? We saw Hippolyta was a cavewoman, but does she even remember that? Does she remember the 'husband' that bashed her head in?

The roundabout way Diana took... well thats kinda part of the problem I have with the clay birth, because you can easily render it down into machinery and software, as DC does on occassion if the New Gods get involved. Like:
John Henry Iron's soul was taken by Darkseid when Steel died during Our Worlds at War, and stuffed into the Entropy Aegis.
Red Tornado has been blown up, recovered and contained in computers before he's downloaded down into a new robot body a number of times, as has Cyborg.
Right now Donna Troy is an unfortunate Amazon spirit fuelling a clay body thats being guided around by others.
And ofc, we have Zola, a clayborn human that was unknowingly a tool made for the Gods all her life.
Diana was a normal human soul the Gods made a superhuman body for before she was brought to life.

All I am saying is that as revered as the clay-origins is, there are just some huge potential risks involved in it, risks that I'm very certain someone like Johns would like to play around with if he got the chance.

[Hawk80]

At some point some writer could come and tell a story based on a crappy idea. Fine. Every single fictional character had the same problem at a certain point in their life.