The Mission: The Allure of Marvel's Female Thor & the All-New Captain America's Struggle

[leo619]

"That said, the story reads like Sam Wilson continues to fail, time and time again"

That's what really put me off after picking up the first 2 issues.

This has been my issue with the comic since the first issue. While I appreciate the different approach he went with armadillo, the fact that he hasn't been able to beat any of his opponents in single's combat besides the surprise attack on crossbones is downright insulting, and has been my primary and main complaint about the issue. Wow Thor has been whipping tail in her comics, Captain America needs to be saved in every single one of his.

It's also should be well known knowledge by now that minority comics just doesn't sell that well, people always try to beat around the bush but it's just the indication in this industry, until more minority readers enter the fray which would be much more willing to give minority characters a chance, you're going to have issues with this. Even though Marvel is steadily increasing in the women's side so if this keeps up, they will the demographic that help saves this current industry.

[rdman]

As a liberal, I am aware of the importance of more positive representation of women and minorities in heroic fiction. But as an old timey comic fan, I confess that I never liked temporary replacements of popular superheroes. It still has the smell of a gimmick, ever since I first encountered this practice in the 1980s and 1990s.

I don't consider Carol Danvers in this light, though. The Kree Mar-Vell has been dead for ages. Carol Danvers always should have been the inheritor to the title. That it took Marvel so long to do it can only be attribute to sexism and how much they've messed Carol up in the 1980s.

I am definitely feeling woman Thor and ambivalent with Sam Wilson Captain America. But making Carol Danvers permanent Captain marvell I wish t hey would bring back Ultimate Captain marvel, a blue-skinned Kree male.

Honestly I think minority male characters get the shaft or little rep except for Sunspot and Nova, and yet I feel they are a bit sidelined. And also they marginalize Asian males of power or other powerful male heroes, Sunfire & Blue marvel for example. And more so they seem to sideline male heroic characters with cool powers - Hyperion, Blue Marvel, Synch, and Mimic.

[Harpoon]

This has been my issue with the comic since the first issue. While I appreciate the different approach he went with armadillo, the fact that he hasn't been able to beat any of his opponents in single's combat besides the surprise attack on crossbones is downright insulting, and has been my primary and main complaint about the issue. Wow Thor has been whipping tail in her comics, Captain America needs to be saved in every single one of his.

It's also should be well known knowledge by now that minority comics just doesn't sell that well, people always try to beat around the bush but it's just the indication in this industry, until more minority readers enter the fray which would be much more willing to give minority characters a chance, you're going to have issues with this. Even though Marvel is steadily increasing in the women's side so if this keeps up, they will the demographic that help saves this current industry.

He beat both Sin and Zemo in single combat, regardless of the latter recovering while Sam was distracted (and then getting smacked down by Sam again anyway), so I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Maverick]

I read the first 3 issue of CapFal. It was OK -- not bad, but not great either.

Though I did wondered why the story I was reading couldn't simply have been told with Sam Wilson as his own damn identity. He's The Falcon.
So him becoming Captain America (at the expense of THE Captain America no less) was kinda lame.

Now, this contemplation wasn't what made me drop the book though. I dropped it because out everything I was reading, it was the least most interesting -- I was invested... but not as invested as other titles I buy monthly (titles that include THOR). Something had to go and I chose All New Cap'n Murica

[skyvolt2000]

I read the first 3 issue of CapFal. It was OK -- not bad, but not great either.

Though I did wondered why the story I was reading couldn't simply have been told with Sam Wilson as his own damn identity. He's The Falcon.
So him becoming Captain America (at the expense of THE Captain America no less) was kinda lame.

Now, this contemplation wasn't what made me drop the book though. I dropped it because out everything I was reading, it was the least most interesting -- I was invested... but not as invested as other titles I buy monthly (titles that include THOR). Something had to go and I chose All New Cap'n Murica

Question-if Falcon was given a solo instead of this and still be in 3-4 other books-would it have gotten 120k orders for that first issue?

Would you have seen that book get announced on the Corbert report?

In other words all the variants and stuff we saw when Sam took over would not happen if he was Falcon. Marvel was trying to cash in on that movie and while it worked comic book side wise-it actually failed outside comics.

We see what Marvel is doing with Ms Marvel & Lady Thor-the A Book and magazine with first issues from those respective series.

Why was that not done with Falcon? Why couldn't that have been done with Falcon, Miles, Nova, Bother Voodoo, Ghostrider & Black Panther? Along with the A Book?

It's also should be well known knowledge by now that minority comics just doesn't sell that well, people always try to beat around the bush but it's just the indication in this industry, until more minority readers enter the fray which would be much more willing to give minority characters a chance, you're going to have issues with this.

Why is it my job as a minority to keep Captain Falcon or any minority book around?

Why are we required to read every single minority lead book?

Where are the gun happy talking raccoon reading Rocket Raccoon?

Where are the zombies reading Walking Dead?

Maybe minorities don't want to read comics because the comic book fans is hostile towards them. The hate towards some of the minorities heroes is disgusting. Especially the black ones.

How many pages of complaints have we seen aimed at Black Panther? Eli Bradley? Static? John Stewart? Heck you got folks that write ESSAYS about how much they HATE John Stewart.

We don't need more minority readers to support minority lead books. We need more folks to leave minority books, their fans & minority creators ALONE. Stop making us feel unwelcome.

[ed2962]

Okay that I did not know. How was Sam's tenure as Cap back then?

It was only for a few issues for one story arc. Sam did it cuz Steve was out of action and he didn't want the Sons of the Serpent to ruin the idea of captain america.

[Trident]

I don't agree with this idea that Sam's done nothing except been saved at all.

He still held his own against Batroc and Crossbones, and later KO'd the latter in one strike. He still utterly defeated Sin. He still got through to Armadillo and convinced him to turn against HYDRA. He still pummelled Zemo several times. He still stopped Zemo from sterilizing a lot of people using nothing but his own superpowers.

He isn't just letting others "take charge" at all.

Sam character has succeeded in All-New Cap and yes Sam is doing a good job holding his own. But the fact remains that....

Nomad saves him from Batroc

Misty saved Sam from Crossbones

Armadillo saved Sam from Cobra

And Nomad saved him from Zemo (which is just nuts to me since he was the real villain of the story)

We still have a couple of issue left in the arch but so far the good things in the book, Sam's origin cleaned up, Confronting the negativity towards the character, having a inspiring moment and beating Sin, doesn't out way the "bad". Things like Nomad seeming like the actual leader/boss of the duo on mutiple occasion, Sam having to be saved be saved mutiple times, and Sam solving the problem but the sidekick gets to beat the boss villain.

Right now anyone who thought before hand that Sam was incapable of handling himself and comes off "weak" are being proven right. And as a long time fan of the character that sucks.

[leo619]

He beat both Sin and Zemo in single combat, regardless of the latter recovering while Sam was distracted (and then getting smacked down by Sam again anyway), so I have no idea what you're talking about.

He beat neither Sin nor Zemo in single's combat. Zemo had him on the ropes and he was saved by Nomad, with Sin, she refused his help and kicked him away to fall to the ground, that does not mean a win in single's combat. So I have no idea what you're talking about.

[Trident]

I know Sam's experienced at being a hero, I'm actually a big fan of his, that's the only reason why I'm mostly okay (I say mostly because, I'm not really a big fan of him losing the SSS and becoming 90 years old) with him replacing my favorite hero in Steve Rogers, because I was hoping it would do the same for him as it did for the Winter Soldier, in giving him his own solo as Falcon, when Steve eventually regains his shield.

I totally agree with you in that Sam has earned his shot at being Captain America, but having experience as one hero doesn't mean he should be able to take over being another hero and using a weapon, that he's never, to my knowledge used before, from a guy who is, quite frankly, better than him in all regards (I'm talking about physically and experience, not on a personal or character level) and not be shown to be at a little disadvantage, or struggle a bit when it's his first outing as Captain America, I just don't think it should be to this extent. If Sam came out and was just as good at being Cap as Steve is/was then that would be a disservice to Steve Rogers (and all the other Caps), literally saying that it's easy being Cap and anyone could be able to do it, and as history shows us, that is not the case.

I see what your saying but I think you may have misunderstood me.

For instance I could careless if Sam ever throws the Sheild. While him being Caps partner longer than any other character would lead you to think that the guy has practiced with it time to time I don't care if he can't use it. What I'm a little peeved with is that we seen Sam side by side with Steve Rodgers and keep up with him for years. Not only that but Sam is a character who has served as an Avengers already. Sam is character who has worked on his own on mutiple occasions. But people keep saying that he should have some disadvantage when becoming Cap like he is some fresh hero like Ms Marvel or something. The only thing Sam should be potentially be having a problem with is inspiring and instaling confedince in others. The not holding his own against C-List villians like Cobra doesn't fly under the "he needs to struggle" for me.

This is the Sam I know:



(Not Steve above but he still has the SSS)

The guy in All New Cap is seeming more and more like a vehicle to push Nomad.

All the while Thor Girl II is kicking the original Thor's butt and beating Absorbing Man's @$$ like ....well like he stole something. WTF

[Redjack]

this is not complex.

Aaron knows how to write Thor, whether Thor is Thor or not.

Remender has no clue how to write either Captain America or the Falcon and it's hurting sales. it's no more or less complex than that.

[Harpoon]

Sam character has succeeded in All-New Cap and yes Sam is doing a good job holding his own. But the fact remains that....

Nomad saves him from Batroc

Misty saved Sam from Crossbones

Armadillo saved Sam from Cobra

And Nomad saved him from Zemo (which is just nuts to me since he was the real villain of the story)

We still have a couple of issue left in the arch but so far the good things in the book, Sam's origin cleaned up, Confronting the negativity towards the character, having a inspiring moment and beating Sin, doesn't out way the "bad". Things like Nomad seeming like the actual leader/boss of the duo on mutiple occasion, Sam having to be saved be saved mutiple times, and Sam solving the problem but the sidekick gets to beat the boss villain.

Right now anyone who thought before hand that Sam was incapable of handling himself and comes off "weak" are being proven right. And as a long time fan of the character that sucks.

Armadillo saving Sam is all because Sam's the one who convinced him to go good--that's just as much a victory for Sam as him being the one to punch in both Armadillo and Cobra's teeth himself, it's not all about physical feats. And the only reason Sam needed saving from Zemo was because he was busy saving possibly millions of people himself, you're also ignoring how he had just beat Zemo earlier and saved himself when Zemo had tried digging a blade into his chest.

He beat neither Sin nor Zemo in single's combat. Zemo had him on the ropes and he was saved by Nomad, with Sin, she refused his help and kicked him away to fall to the ground, that does not mean a win in single's combat. So I have no idea what you're talking about.

Except that, as I said in the post you quoted, Sam had already beaten up Zemo a bunch before that and knocked him down twice--once again, the only reason Sam needed saving there was because he was busy saving others. How does that show Sam as weak in single combat at all, especially when he pushed a freakin' sword out of his chest? He's the one who got to give Zemo the final blow, too, if that's all you see as most important.

And I don't see how Sin refusing Sam's help escaping from the situation he put her in is a loss for him.

[Rosebunse]

this is not complex.

Aaron knows how to write Thor, whether Thor is Thor or not.

Remender has no clue how to write either Captain America or the Falcon and it's hurting sales. it's no more or less complex than that.

I think Aaron is just a better writer than Remender is. I don't hate Remender, of course...just his stories can be weird things.

[Redjack]

i dont' hate Remender. i don't know him.

i loved FEAR AGENT to bits.

he's the wrong guy for Captain America, regardless of who's in the suit.

[leo619]

Armadillo saving Sam is all because Sam's the one who convinced him to go good--that's just as much a victory for Sam as him being the one to punch in both Armadillo and Cobra's teeth himself, it's not all about physical feats. And the only reason Sam needed saving from Zemo was because he was busy saving possibly millions of people himself, you're also ignoring how he had just beat Zemo earlier and saved himself when Zemo had tried digging a blade into his chest.



Except that, as I said in the post you quoted, Sam had already beaten up Zemo a bunch before that and knocked him down twice--once again, the only reason Sam needed saving there was because he was busy saving others. How does that show Sam as weak in single combat at all, especially when he pushed a freakin' sword out of his chest? He's the one who got to give Zemo the final blow, too, if that's all you see as most important.

And I don't see how Sin refusing Sam's help escaping from the situation he put her in is a loss for him.

Knocking him down twice is not the same as defeating him. We clearly have different viewpoints on what a victory means. To me, a victory means either the villain is ko'ed, or gives up, either switching sides like with amardillo or submitting to go to jail. This did not happen with either Zemo or Sin. With Zemo, like almost all of his previous encounters, Sam needed to get saved, except this time by Nomad. Nomad had the opportunity to ko the villain himself, but instead gave the "honors" to sam.

Again, these are the main two points that I stated I have problems with in the comics.

1) Sam needs saving all the time.

*True* All his fights instead of 1, he was rescued by someone. That 1 being sin.

2) Sam has not defeated a single person in combat.

Debatable, as mentioned before. It seems that people have different ideas on what's considered a victory. For example you see Sin kicking Captain America to escape as victory.
I don't. To me, it's like a fighting video game and instead of captain america winning normally with ko, Sin purposely does a ring out to escape. Though I never said that it puts her as a loss for him.

[Harpoon]

Knocking him down twice is not the same as defeating him. We clearly have different viewpoints on what a victory means. To me, a victory means either the villain is ko'ed, or gives up, either switching sides like with amardillo or submitting to go to jail. This did not happen with either Zemo or Sin. With Zemo, like almost all of his previous encounters, Sam needed to get saved, except this time by Nomad. Nomad had the opportunity to ko the villain himself, but instead gave the "honors" to sam.

Again, these are the main two points that I stated I have problems with in the comics.

1) Sam needs saving all the time.

*True* All his fights instead of 1, he was rescued by someone. That 1 being sin.

2) Sam has not defeated a single person in combat.

Debatable, as mentioned before. It seems that people have different ideas on what's considered a victory. For example you see Sin kicking Captain America to escape as victory.
I don't. To me, it's like a fighting video game and instead of captain america winning normally with ko, Sin purposely does a ring out to escape. Though I never said that it puts her as a loss for him.

And yet, Sam still showed himself as the better fighter than Zemo; the only reason he didn't KO him was because he was distracted by stuff that was a lot more important than punching out the villain. If you're going to count Nomad not taking that opportunity as still a victory for him despite you considering a victory to be a KO, side switch, or surrender, then you should count the two opportunities Sam had as two victories, too.

Sam still plainly beat Sin. I don't see how her running away isn't a win for him at all--just because she kicked him?