The God of War vs SuperDoom aka Superman/Wonder Woman #11

[Dr. Hurt]

It makes her less human. Her explanation to Artemis in issue 12 and her comments to Zola in #23 indicate she feels the need to protect others from it, and that it does not represent the best side of herself.

Using it on the ship in #2 would likely have put the crew in danger even if she had defeated DD, since they would have trashed the ship in the struggle. Plus she didn't know how dangerous the infant form of Superman's most physically powerful opponent was to her.

The real question is how strong is Superdoom. If he has Clark's strength plus that of the infant DD, then Z-daddy mode would be all that was keeping Diana alive.

Hopefully it's the lasso that will make the biggest difference.

She is a god now, so she should be able to manage her godly power without losing her control. Shouldnt she?

Those swords are super-duper plain

Eh, to each his own. I like that they're simpler in design because they're supposedly energy. They remind me of the lightsabers in a way. I always liked simplicity and cleanliness in design.

and what's the matter with cleavage?

I dont know. She's WW, not PG.

I think what bugs me about Chiang's swords are the skinny stars that look like anemic starfish. They're rarely drawn fat, like the ones on her costume.

I agree with this. He does draw them like starfish for some reason.

[SofNascimento]

It's no just about destruction. First you do have the fact that the destruction she can cause becomes too unpredictable and she won't have it most of the times, true enough. In a superficial level it's similar to how Superman holds back, although thematically they are very different. Second, and most importantly, I believe the main reason Wonder Woman doesn't use it often is this one:



It goes against how she wants to be. It's just a crude power a "Storm" to quote Ares. The control they are talking about is a restrain Wonder Woman imposes on herself in the porsue of being a better person.

It's worth noting that In both situations that she used godmode she was very aware and rational, being able to negociate with Apollo in 12 and calmly put her bracelets back on in 23. You could argue she was angrier than she is used to be in both those situations, but we've seen her being similary angry with her bracelets on. Therefore, she being more aggressive is not a result of taking out the bracelets, it's more the cause of it. She would be equally mad against the First Born if she didn't had this ability.

Wonder Woman sees taking out the bracelets as a personal sacrifice, and it's one that she doesn't make lightly.

[enish]

From TOny's page: This is gonna happen in next month's SMWW
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

[brettc1]

It's no just about destruction. First you do have the fact that the destruction she can cause becomes too unpredictable and she won't have it most of the times, true enough. In a superficial level it's similar to how Superman holds back, although thematically they are very different. Second, and most importantly, I believe the main reason Wonder Woman doesn't use it often is this one:



It goes against how she wants to be. It's just a crude power a "Storm" to quote Ares. The control they are talking about is a restrain Wonder Woman imposes on herself in the porsue of being a better person.

It's worth noting that In both situations that she used godmode she was very aware and rational, being able to negociate with Apollo in 12 and calmly put her bracelets back on in 23. You could argue she was angrier than she is used to be in both those situations, but we've seen her being similary angry with her bracelets on. Therefore, she being more aggressive is not a result of taking out the bracelets, it's more the cause of it. She would be equally mad against the First Born if she didn't had this ability.

Wonder Woman sees taking out the bracelets as a personal sacrifice, and it's one that she doesn't make lightly.

Well, she put the bracers on in 23 because she had the Z-daddy mode beaten out of her. And the reason for that was that she did not give in fully to the beserker fury it seems to initiate.

Also she was able to negotiate a deal with Apollo after she had beaten down Artemis.

Maybe this aspect of her new power promotes increased violence and it is harder for her to control it. It need not necessarily make her instantaneously into a killing machine, but it could be something that could happen if her conscious control were ever to slip. That in itself would give her pause in using it.

[RealWonderman]

I look at the other gods and maybe the idea is that they are very petty and cruel for the most part...one or two dimensional...not much 'humanness" to them, and they are willing to throw the dice with no regard. I think this might be what the bracers protect Diana from becoming. Even as a demi god there was the potential. So, instead of berserker rage, maybe it's a slow grind away from being and feeling and thinking like a human.

[BlackFeath]

To be fair she was only a Demi God at that point God Mode made her as if not more strong then a Mid Tier God (Artemis/Moon) who she overpowered but she couldn't really apparently control herself as well as usual and was basically fighting Firstborn with just Brawn none of her usual skill so she was simply outclassed pure strength wise. Here will probably be her first time doing it as a Full God so I am interested how it will play out.

Well yeah that's what I said basically. First Born was still stronger by a noticeable bit. But I'm assuming she'll have even more power now as you mentioned but I don't think it'll be at all about power but more so her new abilities as the new War.

It's no just about destruction. First you do have the fact that the destruction she can cause becomes too unpredictable and she won't have it most of the times, true enough. In a superficial level it's similar to how Superman holds back, although thematically they are very different. Second, and most importantly, I believe the main reason Wonder Woman doesn't use it often is this one:


It goes against how she wants to be. It's just a crude power a "Storm" to quote Ares. The control they are talking about is a restrain Wonder Woman imposes on herself in the porsue of being a better person.

It's worth noting that In both situations that she used godmode she was very aware and rational, being able to negociate with Apollo in 12 and calmly put her bracelets back on in 23. You could argue she was angrier than she is used to be in both those situations, but we've seen her being similary angry with her bracelets on. Therefore, she being more aggressive is not a result of taking out the bracelets, it's more the cause of it. She would be equally mad against the First Born if she didn't had this ability.

Wonder Woman sees taking out the bracelets as a personal sacrifice, and it's one that she doesn't make lightly.

Yes, I too think the 'anger' doesn't really depend on god mode...maybe it amplifies it, but it is not the cause.
Anyway...between when she used god mode in issue 12 and when she used it in issue 23 there's a difference.

In issue 12 before taking off her bracelets she was calm, and then:



When she fought she actually used skills too, she didn't just use her power.

In issue 23, instead, she was angry before using it, because the First Born had killed Lennox.



and then she just assaulted the First Born and punched him. I don't see her using any fighting skills here:



Also...to me it doesn't seem she lost against the First Born because she was less powerful... From what you can say she lost because she was less strong by a noticeable bit?
What the First Born did was make her crash against the floor. No real context of strength. I have the impression she 'lost' because something else. Because she let her anger dominates her.

And I have this impression because of two things.

First from what War said about two storms clashing against each other with an unpredictable outcome. He didn't say that one of the storm could have lost because it was less powerful than the other, he just said that when two powerful storm fight against each other the outcome is unpredictable (aka when you fight just with power and not with skills, letting rage dominates you, or at least that's how I read it).

Second, there's the dialogue with the First Born.

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...pire%29-13.jpg

From what Wonder Woman says it is clear to me she was lost in her rage, and then the First Born points that out to her, she hesitates (it's the First Born who says so) and so she 'lost'.

Well...not really... she crashed against the floor, but then she stood up again. She wasn't really defeated, only she realized that by losing herself in her rage, she couldn't win, so she decided it was "better if she tried to be who she aspires to be".

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...pire%29-15.jpg

[RealWonderman]

I look at the other gods and maybe the idea is that they are very petty and cruel for the most part...one or two dimensional...not much 'humanness" to them, and they are willing to throw the dice with no regard. I think this might be what the bracers protect Diana from becoming. Even as a demi god there was the potential. So, instead of berserker rage, maybe it's a slow grind away from being and feeling and thinking like a human.

Plus, she probably hates her god mode hair.

[BlackFeath]

I look at the other gods and maybe the idea is that they are very petty and cruel for the most part...one or two dimensional...not much 'humanness" to them, and they are willing to throw the dice with no regard. I think this might be what the bracers protect Diana from becoming. Even as a demi god there was the potential. So, instead of berserker rage, maybe it's a slow grind away from being and feeling and thinking like a human.

Yep...I think it's a question of just giving in your power, abusing it and losing yourself, your humanity. In a certain sense it is a question of "'power' corrupts".

I think these are good examples of how the gods see their 'power':







And here the reason Diana gives Artemis not to use always her power:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/...777-ww20-2.jpg

[Dr. Hurt]

It feels a bit like a copout. Every other hero has to fight the demon within that keeps them from crossing the line, but Diana has the bracelets to protect her from that. I dont know, it's a deus ex machina at best. Let her have access to it all the time, as well as fighting to do what's right and not get carried away. Not this "i could kill the First Born now and save the day, but i'd rather not get mad and lose control, so let him be and kill some people".

[SofNascimento]

It feels a bit like a copout. Every other hero has to fight the demon within that keeps them from crossing the line, but Diana has the bracelets to protect her from that. I dont know, it's a deus ex machina at best. Let her have access to it all the time, as well as fighting to do what's right and not get carried away. Not this "i could kill the First Born now and save the day, but i'd rather not get mad and lose control, so let him be and kill some people".

It's not. The term Deus Ex Machina is extremely overused and in most cases incorrectly. Godmode serves as a physical manifestation of Diana's inner conflict. Ultimately, it's not the bracelets that keep it at bay, it's Diana herself.

[Dr. Hurt]

It's not. The term Deus Ex Machina is extremely overused and in most cases incorrectly. Godmode serves as a physical manifestation of Diana's inner conflict. Ultimately, it's not the bracelets that keep it at bay, it's Diana herself.

And when she cant beat someone, say... Super-Doomsday, she uses it to manage. We all know damn well that only Azzarello will touch on the subject of restraint, while everyone else will just use it for the cool visual effect.

Besides, this same subject could have been explored in a million ways, without needing to place a cap on WW's power.

[BlackFeath]

I talked about everything else but not about the cover xD It's awesome!

Anyway.
I don't understand...

Didn't Superman died when he first fought the 'baby version of Doomsday'? We always talk about how Diana lost in issue 2, but never of how he lost against the 'larva' too during his first fight <.<

Oh nah I was actually talking about god mod. Sorry about that. It probably would have helped her a bit in the fight. But yeah this is a "baby version of Doomsday" it seems as Superman said "I'm just going get stronger soon and things will start dying if they come in contact with me". This means he's probably around the "larva stage" like in SM/WW #2.

About Superman being in the 'larva stage'. Maybe he is not already. After all he inhaled Doomsday's poison, and then there's this, from the preview of Batman/Superman #11:





It seems he already affected Krypto just by staying near him...so maybe Superman is not in his 'larva stage' (if he will evolve just as Doomsday) anymore.
Actually the way he will 'evolve' could be different from Doomsday's, though.

It feels a bit like a copout. Every other hero has to fight the demon within that keeps them from crossing the line, but Diana has the bracelets to protect her from that.

Do you mean in general? In issue 21 she fought against Artemis and won without using her god mode. Using it she could have won more easily, but probably she would have cause much more damage.

Anyway, in a certain sense she fights against her demon. She fights because, really,
1) she is already strong with the bracelets, and she has often to pull her punches against not so strong enemies;
2) all she has to do to use her god power is taking off her bracelets, so I think she has to fight the instinct of just doing that all the time.

I dont know, it's a deus ex machina at best. Let her have access to it all the time, as well as fighting to do what's right and not get carried away. Not this "i could kill the First Born now and save the day, but i'd rather not get mad and lose control, so let him be and kill some people".

I don't think she would do that xD If she has to, she will use it. The only time she decided to put on again her bracelets was in issue 23, and I think in that case, seeing her state of mind, she did the right thing.

Now...if we are talking about the other books, I don't know...xD
For example...against Zod and Faora there's no reason why she didn't! She could have at least tried...
Against Doomsday the first time, just as how Brettc1 said, it would have been dangerous for the sailors, and first, she didn't know how strong her enemy was. Maybe if the fight was to continue, she would have.
During the second fight, instead, maybe she didn't have the time...after all Doomsday escaped. The fight didn't last that much till Superman's arrival.

Anyway...she never used it till now... The first time will be in the next issue of SMWW, and I'm really looking forward to it!

[Dr. Hurt]

As Azz's story is coming to an end, i'm starting to realise that most of the changes he made were for the benefit for his story and not WW in general, in his story and after it. The god mode works in a gimmicky DeM way, the sex piracy was basically tainting the Amazons so that he could have WW teach them to be more open minded in the span of a couple of issues, and the Zeus thing was for everything involving the gods and WW's ascention to GoW.

I like the god mode, i like Diana as GoW, and i like the Zeus origin. I just dont like how everything is handled and in this particular case, that WW has to settle for less power because if she uses it all she can turn into the Hulk.

[Silvanus]

I wonder if using god mode in August will lead into losing her humanity in the "five years later" issues of WW and WW/SM in September, also by Soule. It seems like she may not have suffered noticeable ill effects in the meanttime; in Future's End 2 (five years later, but apparently a little before the events of the September issues) she seems normal and peaceful in her few panels and one line of dialogue. But maybe letting loose against Superdoom will have opened cracks in her control, and the September issues show us a possible future in which those cracks finally widen and her control shatters.

[BlackFeath]

As Azz's story is coming to an end, i'm starting to realise that most of the changes he made were for the benefit for his story and not WW in general, in his story and after it. The god mode works in a gimmicky DeM way, the sex piracy was basically tainting the Amazons so that he could have WW teach them to be more open minded in the span of a couple of issues, and the Zeus thing was for everything involving the gods and WW's ascention to GoW.

I like the god mode, i like Diana as GoW, and i like the Zeus origin. I just dont like how everything is handled and in this particular case, that WW has to settle for less power because if she uses it all she can turn into the Hulk.

I don't think she will stop to use her bracelets, but Azzarello in his interview after issue 23, if I remember correctly, intended to explore more her conflict between who she is and who she aspires to be, and about the 'going against who I am' is really good?.

Here...I found the interview:

Azzarello: Yeah. I just gave it another layer by saying it kept her godliness in check.

But that's something that she learns in this issue too. It's like, "I don't need the godliness. I need to be me, or what I think I can be."

Nrama: I don't understand. What do you mean?

Azzarello: Well, when she takes off her gauntlets and she goes head-to-head with First Born, and they're both like two storms crashing into each other, she's not being true to herself.

It's funny that I'm writing Wonder Woman and Brother Lono at the same time, and they both are kind of dealing with the same issue, so that's what's going around in my head right now.

Nrama: What? Finding who they are? Being true to themselves?

Azzarello: Yes. It's the question, are you supposed to give in to your base instincts? Or are you supposed to try to be something better? But if you're trying to be something better, are you not being true to yourself? Because maybe you're not supposed to be something better.

Nrama: Maybe I need to embrace that part of me.

Azzarello: Yeah.

Nrama: And for Wonder Woman, that part she needs to embrace is the warrior/god inside herself?

Azzarello: Well, I don't want to answer that yet. We're going to find that out.

http://www.newsarama.com/18787-wonde...-spoilers.html

And there's also Artemis's words to consider...that about power restrained exploding in your face.