New Avengers 32 *spoilers*

[PlanetaryDevastation]

I wonder what the Beyonder meant by the significance and cost of their lives. Could if be a Beyonder is tied to the multiverse? And their death would cause universes to be destroyed? We have yet to find out why several hundred thousand universes vanished I wonder if it's tied to the death of these two Beyonders.

Although this would not explain why they are destroying universes.

I suppose that's possible but I read it as they thought that the life of a Beyonder is much more important than the lives of any other creature lives. They are a even more arrogant version of the Buliders.

[jphamlore]

I suppose that's possible but I read it as they thought that the life of a Beyonder is much more important than the lives of any other creature lives. They are a even more arrogant version of the Buliders.

The Beyonders wanted to experiment with making their own mumblegore comic issue, so they sent out two of their most inexperienced yet arrogant equivalents of millennials out into the woods to fight monsters without any preparation. Fortunately for us, Hickman spared us the 5 issue prelude where the two Beyonders bickered about their relationship and whose idea it was to go backpacking without a map into the woods.

[TresDias]

You don't know that Starbrand killed that Beyonder. You saw it blown up, that's all.

Ah, comics.

[Sangreal12]

I'm not sure I've ever had such an emotional response to a comic book before. After sacrificing the rest of the team and Thor's arm to kill two beyonders, there is a brief moment of joy followed by that page with the horde of beyonders coming through followed by Hyperion (One of the most powerful beings around) saying "We're going to die here today." "Aye." Thor responds.

The sense of dread and despair was palpable on the pages. And at the end you realize that all this barely registers as an annoyance to the beyonders. Really amazing issue.

On a side note, six years ago Hickman began this epic in the pages of Fantastic Four, it's wonderful to start getting some conclusion to it all.

[jphamlore]

I'm not sure I've ever had such an emotional response to a comic book before. After sacrificing the rest of the team and Thor's arm to kill two beyonders, there is a brief moment of joy followed by that page with the horde of beyonders coming through followed by Hyperion (One of the most powerful beings around) saying "We're going to die here today." "Aye." Thor responds.

The sense of dread and despair was palpable on the pages. And at the end you realize that all this barely registers as an annoyance to the beyonders. Really amazing issue.

On a side note, six years ago Hickman began this epic in the pages of Fantastic Four, it's wonderful to start getting some conclusion to it all.

If you haven't already, check out Hickman's Ultimates run where by the end of his second issue on the book there is an equally poignant moment where Ultimate Thor and his brother Ultimate Loki are facing what they believe is their death in battle versus Ultimate Reed's Children. Hickman actually wrote the prelude in his Ultimate Thor miniseries.

[Raye]

As posted elsewhere, but relevant to the discussion here:

Well, now we know why Thor gets a replacement for his replacement arm.

I don't think Thor is truly dead. But this may explain why he is not on any promo material for Secret Wars.

I think it's telling that when Abyss and the Nihili sacrifice themselves to kill one Beyonder, a tree is the result, with newly re-worthy Thor in it's presence. A new World Tree, perhaps? It may be that Thor's essence is absorbed into the tree and it is what seeds a new universe after Secret Wars ends. In the beginning, the universe was created from the remains of the giant Ymir. What if Ymir was actually a Beyonder, and things are now repeating?

[jackolover]

Well now we have confirmation the destruction of universes is the Beyonders experiment, and hasn't finished yet.

Yes, we have just seen the end of Thor, Odinson, from the existence he once enjoyed, so this is a solemn occasion, in this the start of many more deaths in the Earth-616, but this is the first.

How are we to interpret the manipulations of Rabum Alul and the Mapmakers from this? With the Ivory Kings the architects of the Incursions, (not Rabum Alul starting the Incursions, otherwise why would the Beyonders claim they are?), this whole thing is leading to Battleworld, but that Rabum Alul has some plan surrounding the Beyonders. The mapping must just be to track what portions of what alternate Earths end up on Battleworld, but how does that help Doom?

I do wonder about the tree the brother and sister created from a Beyonder? It looks suspiciously like a World Tree connected to Asgard space. This starts me thinking the Beyonders have been made unaware this tree exists, and this could be the root of a new Universe or Multiverse that is a next step in the transformation from Secret Wars. If Doom is made aware of this tree, he maybe able to return to this universe, (that Thor and Hyperian could not recognize), and start everything over anew?

[jackolover]

Aww, I ended up liking most of the new characters but should have seen it coming. At least they went out like total badasses.

Yeah, the whole of New Universal was just brushed away by Incursions, and are now gone, too. HICKMAN only introduced them to either be destroyed at the end of arc, or, were instrumental in creating a new World Tree. If this is how World Treesare made( by New Universal entities converting a Beyonder), them New Universal will remain in legend from here on in.

[jackolover]

The moment with Tnor and the hammer was tone of the best comic book moments I've ever had. Amazing.

I wonder if Odin noticed something happened to his son Thor? Did Odin feel Thor become worthy, and feel him die?

[Captain_Obvious]

And the stage is set.

[jackolover]

Why is it stupid?

I really don't get this A always beats B always beats C mentality that so many fans have.

The right kind of spider can kill a man with a bite. Yet if a toddler came along and stepped on the spider, it'd squish just like you'd expect.

Frankly, thinking that because the spider killed a man meant it could never lose to something "less" than a man is what's stupid.



Indeed they did. That was a brilliant ending for this group. Sad to see Nightmask and Starbrand go, but at least they went out in style.

And I would honestly be okay if this was actually Thor's end. We all know it won't be, but if it was, I could accept it as a worthy ending for him.

I thought this end of Thor as too abrupt to be THE end of Thor forever. It was just a commando mission, much like the one Thor went on with the Secret Avengers against the Phoenix. There was no fathers farewell, no Avengers farewell to a suicide mission. It was a secret mission, that fell on deaf ears. Nobody knows Thor even did it. Thor was unworthy, not the title Thor, and reduced to a Viking Brawler on the level of the Warriors Three. It seemed an ignoble end rather than a legendary end.

[Gokaifire]

And may I just take a moment to give enormous props to Jonathan Hickman. Other Marvel writers, in their attempt to write cliche', headline grabbing stories took some of the most important pieces of the MU off the board for what is Marvel's biggest event arguably ever, and not only did Hickman write around it with absolutely incredible expertise and keep the main event running, he used it to springboard his story and make it even better. That is real, real talent and he deserves loads of credit. I'm sure Jason Aaron is on the phone complaining to Marvel as we speak that Hickman refuses to use his Lady Thor in this major event, but oh well. Aaron and Remender tried to take two of the biggest cards out of the deck and Hickman played them anyways, and it's been wonderful.

I agree with you 100%; Make Captain America a weak non-powered human? Perfect, he now fits into the role of a government agent hunting down fugitives even better. Take away Thor's greatest weapon and give him depression? Sure, use that as a motivation to lead a suicide mission, develop a camaraderie with another hero, and give him the chance to become worthy again by sacrificing his life.

[jackolover]

I'm sure their questioning was just rhetorical fluff. That said, the Beyonders are not all powerful in spite of their previous feat of slaying the Living Tribunal. Others mentioned that the Council of Reeds killed a Beyonder before elsewhere. But also remember that Tribunal et al fought the Beyonders on Beyonder turf, which is no doubt important to the power levels of the Beyonders. Note, as well, that in this issue Ex Nilhilo mentions that the Beyonders they were facing are in a "solid state, their most malleable." This suggests that the Beyonders are significantly less powerful outside of their "wild space" home. And if we think about it, the Beyonders have set in motion a rather long-winded, complex plan to destroy universes (Incursions) instead of merely wiping out everything in existence (because they probably can't).

Moreover, I am so glad we get Deodato on art duty again! I'm still hoping to see Epting return but Deodato is a refresher from Kev Walker. Wish we had Deodato on #31.

Yes, I am intrigued by the elaborate plan of the Beyonders to start the Incursions. Its possible Doom came to the Beyonders as they were about to embark on some horrendous plan, and Doom talked to them like a huckster, and talked them around to the Incursions instead, to produce a showcase of the Multiverse in Battleworld as a test?

And yes, so glad to see Deodato on art (with Frank Martin) to depict all the splendour of the fight and the World Tree.

[JKtheMac]

Every now and then I read a comic that reminds me of the importance of visual storytelling to this medium. How the intent of the protagonists need to be shown. How the bodies of the characters, whichever style is chosen, need to flow and emote and physically tell the story.

This is not one of those comics. Deodato has spoilt this issue for me. It is painful to read.

[jackolover]

Anyone else find Starbrand's demise very reminecent of Firestorms death back in DC before 52 started?

Thor being worthy again, this should be interesting...also may tie into some points pre shift over to make him lose his worthy aspect. I wonder about all this. Nice to note that he's got the arm missing. I wonder about Hyperion too, if Thor doesn't die, then he's probably going to be okay as well.



This actually makes sense. If they do end up there first it might help the other characters get there eventually.

As to the pre-shift Thor unworthiness, the team do mention, "how much time will we lose this jump?" If the Thor team have jumped back through time as well, losing time may bring them back just asOriginal Sin starts and Thor becomes unworthy, but it is a very convoluted explanation, if that is it.