New Avengers 32 *spoilers*

[jackolover]

My theory is Nick Fury told Thor Odinson the truth, that he was incapable of defending Midgard. That shattered Thor Odinson's identity, what he had been living for. This was very recently after a storyline in Aaron's Thor where the Odinson had failed to stop the destruction of Broxton, Oklahoma. Thus the Hammer passes to another, who many have guessed is a native of MIdgard, Roz Solomon, a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent who will fight for the environment and Earth against Roxxon and it's CEO Dario Agger / Minotaur.

When the Odinson had resolved this was the moment and the hour he would die in battle and go to Valhalla, he had relieved himself of his burden of not being able to defend Midgard, and thus became worthy again.

Nick could have known Secret Wars was approaching where Earth is destroyed, told Thor you can't save it. That might have destroyed Thors confidence. But why that should be tied to unworthiness is a mystery? Is the definition of "worthy", seriously being able to defend Earth? Even Female Thor can't do that either so she's unworthy as Earth does get destroyed.

[shgs]

Nick could have known Secret Wars was approaching where Earth is destroyed, told Thor you can't save it. That might have destroyed Thors confidence. But why that should be tied to unworthiness is a mystery? Is the definition of "worthy", seriously being able to defend Earth? Even Female Thor can't do that either so she's unworthy as Earth does get destroyed.

In Thor's head it could be, certainly. If Thor truly doesn't believe himself to be worthy, it could easily make him not worthy.

[arveg2]

Those final pages with Thor and Hyperion reminded me of the splash page of the "what if annihilation reached earth" issue with the real Nova, Ironman and Cap taking on the whole annihilation wave on the moon

[Viteh]

Nick could have known Secret Wars was approaching where Earth is destroyed, told Thor you can't save it. That might have destroyed Thors confidence. But why that should be tied to unworthiness is a mystery? Is the definition of "worthy", seriously being able to defend Earth? Even Female Thor can't do that either so she's unworthy as Earth does get destroyed.

If I had to guess, I'd assume that he told Thor that it was him (Fury), and not Thor, who had saved the Earth on a particular time. Not sure which one, probably one that Thor is proud of, and he bases his confidence and worthyness on that event.

[hawkeyefan]

I thought this end of Thor as too abrupt to be THE end of Thor forever. It was just a commando mission, much like the one Thor went on with the Secret Avengers against the Phoenix. There was no fathers farewell, no Avengers farewell to a suicide mission. It was a secret mission, that fell on deaf ears. Nobody knows Thor even did it. Thor was unworthy, not the title Thor, and reduced to a Viking Brawler on the level of the Warriors Three. It seemed an ignoble end rather than a legendary end.

Wow, you got something entirely different out of it than I did.

The fact that he was willing to lay down his life without anyone knowing...without any recognition or glory...is what made him Worthy in the end. His worthiness returned...did you miss that?

Nick could have known Secret Wars was approaching where Earth is destroyed, told Thor you can't save it. That might have destroyed Thors confidence. But why that should be tied to unworthiness is a mystery? Is the definition of "worthy", seriously being able to defend Earth? Even Female Thor can't do that either so she's unworthy as Earth does get destroyed.

I think it's pretty obvious that it must hinge upon Thor's sense of self worth. It's not some external determination of worth, it is internal. So the female Thor can have one opinion about herself, and Thor can have an opinion about himself, and they can be totally different.

[jackolover]

Wow, you got something entirely different out of it than I did.

The fact that he was willing to lay down his life without anyone knowing...without any recognition or glory...is what made him Worthy in the end. His worthiness returned...did you miss that?



I think it's pretty obvious that it must hinge upon Thor's sense of self worth. It's not some external determination of worth, it is internal. So the female Thor can have one opinion about herself, and Thor can have an opinion about himself, and they can be totally different.

Thors worthiness returning fell flat to me. Thor always sacrifices himself selflessly, so what makes this time different to all the rest? Thor should never have lost his worthiness, but it may be self confidence. If Fury can lay a dig on Thor and erode self confidence, yes that's a possibility. But better men, gods, creatures have tried before and never succeeded.

[graffiX]

Great issue. I enjoyed it.

That was Ultimate Thor, right? Not 616 Thor?

(I haven't been reading the full story and I don't read Ultimates)

[hawkeyefan]

Thors worthiness returning fell flat to me. Thor always sacrifices himself selflessly, so what makes this time different to all the rest? Thor should never have lost his worthiness, but it may be self confidence. If Fury can lay a dig on Thor and erode self confidence, yes that's a possibility. But better men, gods, creatures have tried before and never succeeded.

Well I suppose the fact that I don't really care about the Fury whisper and all that except in how it relates to Thor's depiction in Hickman's books probably plays a part. I'm only evaluating what's in the Hickman story.

To me, him and the others going up against unbeatable foes who are trying to destroy all existence as far as we can tell, and doing so simply because it has to be done and nothing more is a great scene. The fact that he regains his worthiness and that robs him of his strongest remaining weapon was great. His laughter at that was perfect. The camaraderie with Hyperion was excellent.

As far as death scenes go, they don't get much better than this one. Compare them to his previous death scenes in The DeFalco days or Disassembled or Fear Itself.....I think this one is the clear winner.

[Habis]

In Thor's head it could be, certainly. If Thor truly doesn't believe himself to be worthy, it could easily make him not worthy.

Thors worthiness returning fell flat to me. Thor always sacrifices himself selflessly, so what makes this time different to all the rest? Thor should never have lost his worthiness, but it may be self confidence. If Fury can lay a dig on Thor and erode self confidence, yes that's a possibility. But better men, gods, creatures have tried before and never succeeded.

Well, I have to say, the determination to fight bravely without hope and against impossible odds, despite knowing victory is impossible, is the supreme virtue among the Norse. The whole Ragnarök thing is about the gods and heroes preparing themselves for a fight they know they will lose, but they prepare for it regardless...

So yes, from a Norse/Asgardian/Odin's point of view, that gesture has earned Thor like a million worthiness points.

[hawkeyefan]

Great issue. I enjoyed it.

That was Ultimate Thor, right? Not 616 Thor?

(I haven't been reading the full story and I don't read Ultimates)

Nope, that was 616 Thor.

[graffiX]

Nope, that was 616 Thor.

Great. Then I enjoyed it even more.

EDIT: Ok, I just did a little research on the whole Thorr/Odinson thing. It was throwing me for a loop.

[vitruvian]

YLater, the Illuminati encounter Beyonder-1 once more, happy as a lark, playing with his toys on asteroid Eros....

No. The Illuminati encounter him a lot earlier, around the time of Secret Wars II.

[vitruvian]

Well, if beyonders are multiverasal creatures, including the baby beyonder, there shouldn't be any other universes in which SWII occurred, right?

Nope. We haven't seen any of those, but we've seen one in which Doom kept baby Beyonder's power for good, or at least for a good while. Evidently there can be as many copies of BB as there are worlds in which things happened differently, or 'he' can manifest in these different worlds without knowing what's going on in the others at the time, otherwise he would have been getting more knowledgeable about physical existence more quickly.

[vitruvian]

I wonder if Odin noticed something happened to his son Thor? Did Odin feel Thor become worthy, and feel him die?

By this point in the story, I wonder why Odin wasn't one of the Multiversal Avengers himself, or instrumental in the struggle to stop the Incursions in some other way. Does he not care if Asgardia and the Nine Worlds and his people are destroyed?

[vitruvian]

As to the pre-shift Thor unworthiness, the team do mention, "how much time will we lose this jump?" If the Thor team have jumped back through time as well, losing time may bring them back just asOriginal Sin starts and Thor becomes unworthy, but it is a very convoluted explanation, if that is it.

They said they're losing time, not gaining it, which is what traveling back in time would do for them.

I'm afraid the Ministry has rejected your request for a Time-Turner.