New Avengers 32 *spoilers*

[Rosebunse]

I mean, as others have said, we didn't really see the full fight against the Celestials. I took the length, complexity, and brutality of the fight being the reasons by Yellowjacket went sort of crazy. The fight could have gone on for a long time.

But still, it shows the problems of the whole thing when you can say something went one way or another.

[hawkeyefan]

And he came back because...I really have no idea...Fraction's run on that was weird.

Because he was on a boat in the afterlife and...and he um...uh he did something?

Parts of Fraction's run were solid. Others were a bit...unclear.

Thor did, not Asgard in a Ragnarok. The cycle of Ragnaroks is over.

Perhaps to be replaced by a cycle that feeds those who sit below in shadow? We don't know....but either way , my Ragnarok comment was more of a joke. Perhaps Odin does not fear the incursions because he thinks he will survive them, was my point.

I didn't dislike this issue too much, but the problem with the tale Hickman is telling is that he wants to have his cake and eat it too. He wants to have the most threatening villains ever AND he wants our heroes to be realistically able to affect them.

I'm sorry, but we saw a single beyonder take out the entirety of a universe's host of celestials, and we saw three of them take out the Living Tribunal (even if there were more of them in that fight, they still took him out). There is absolutely no way that one Beyonder would be defeated by a few ex nihili and Abyss - in fact, we saw in a previous issue that the entirety of the Builders and of the other ex nihili (which were much more numerous) got absolutely wrecked by the same Beyonders. Likewise, a single Starbrand being able to take out a Beyonder is an insult to the abstracts that we saw perish beforehand. Starbrands are supposed to have enough power to "destroy a planet". That should be laughable compared to the Beyonders' powers. I've read that some posters have suggested that perhaps the space Thor & co fought the Beyonders in was different from the "wild space" in which the Beyonders fought the abstracts, meaning perhaps they were more vulnerable in their fight against Thor, but that would be a ridiculous cop-out (not to mention insulting to the intelligence of both the beyonders and the abstracts). I'm not even completely sure the abstracts fought the Beyonders in "wild space", since we're told in NA #30 that Hank saw "in each [reality], a different Beyonder facing, and destroying, the Celestial host", so the celestial hosts were probably destroyed in their respective universes.

Those two Beyonders should have wiped the floor with everybody present. I've also read someone argue that in comics A does not necessarily beat C even if A > B and B > C, and that's true, but the scales of power we're talking about here are just too ridiculously apart to allow Thor's company to prevail against one Beyonder, let alone two.

This is not the first time in this story that the villains Hickman started building up as super-badass end up being underwhelming either. We were initially introduced to the Black Priests and the Mapmakers as unstoppable forces, when in reality they're way less dangerous than many of the cosmic-level foes our heroes have faced in the past.

Plenty of people have addressed this. Brevoort did too on his tumblr. He gave the example that if you throw kryptonite at Superman, he'll fall over. Throw it at Batman and he'll laugh and beat you silly. Doesn't mean Batman can beat Superman .

[divad4686]

If you have a Pantheon god (Bast) first mentioning the problem in the first place, then honesty yes I do believe the issue needs to be addressed somewhere. I don't agree that comparing the gods to Doop or Jack O Lantern really works... Doop son didn't just go out on a suicide mission and get killed. Doop didn't empower Black Panther to combat the very threat we're talking about as we speak.

The abstracts got a few panels addressing their involvement... I think it would have made sense for the Pantheon gods to get a few as well.

How do you know they will not get a few panels? this event is far from over.

[ShaokhaN]

Plenty of people have addressed this. Brevoort did too on his tumblr. He gave the example that if you throw kryptonite at Superman, he'll fall over. Throw it at Batman and he'll laugh and beat you silly. Doesn't mean Batman can beat Superman .

...and I addressed this in my post.

[Gordonstar]

Logic is just a fancy word that stifles things, most things humans do isn't logical.


Plus weakness are in comics too.

[jackolover]

Well I suppose the fact that I don't really care about the Fury whisper and all that except in how it relates to Thor's depiction in Hickman's books probably plays a part. I'm only evaluating what's in the Hickman story.

To me, him and the others going up against unbeatable foes who are trying to destroy all existence as far as we can tell, and doing so simply because it has to be done and nothing more is a great scene. The fact that he regains his worthiness and that robs him of his strongest remaining weapon was great. His laughter at that was perfect. The camaraderie with Hyperion was excellent.

As far as death scenes go, they don't get much better than this one. Compare them to his previous death scenes in The DeFalco days or Disassembled or Fear Itself.....I think this one is the clear winner.

Death scene? Sentry tearing Ares apart was a death scene. This was just another HICKMAN portrayal of a non-portrayal, just like Infinity non-portrayals. We saw a stream of Beyonders swarming out of a portal and in the distance we have to imagine what must be going on.

[jackolover]

By this point in the story, I wonder why Odin wasn't one of the Multiversal Avengers himself, or instrumental in the struggle to stop the Incursions in some other way. Does he not care if Asgardia and the Nine Worlds and his people are destroyed?

It's a very good question. A lot of scenarios are left unaddressed.

[jackolover]

Pantheon gods often seem strangely apathetic in situations like that, at least when Starlin's not writing the story (Thor being the obvious exception). Heck, Bast seemingly knew this was coming months ago yet seems content to just have T'Challa handle things.

Is it a 4th wall thing? The Gods are figments of human superstition, so they don't really exist, just like people always asking, "Why didn't god stop that disaster?" The priest always says, "God works in mysterious ways".

[jackolover]

I can see Odin not caring much about Midgard, given how he's been portrayed at least since Fear Itself and them going away from the idea that the fate of Asgard and the rest of the Nine Worlds are necessarily tied to Midgard's (although that makes nonsense of Odin's actions against the Fourth Host, where he risked his and his people's existence), but that really leaves us with only one option that makes sense.... that Asgard itself is not threatened by the Incursions or Beyonders in any way. Otherwise, for Odin not to act to preserve his kingdom would make him more unworthy than Thor by far.

Odin was unworthy too, because he couldn't lift the hammer either, so there is that. Fury could have said, "Your whole family is unworthy because you have to die to stop the Incursion to get your worthiness back. Thor died, but Odin still hasn't yet. It's a pretty depressing prospect.

[jackolover]

What is the deal with people putting quotation marks on paraphrases? Starbrand actually asks Nightmask, "How many years? How much will it cost this time?" And we get the answer when Nightmask Benjamin-Buttons himself into nonexistence on the next page.

If Starbrand is the only one losing years then yes. Shouldn't the statement have read, "How much will it cost YOU this time?".

[kuyu001]

This issue was fantastic. Seeing the "deaths" and the last stand of Thor and Hyperion got me thinking.

Is it possible the further away from 616 they go, the further back (or forward) in time they travel? They just created what looks like the world tree...is it possible they are at the beginning of time? There is nothing that says all these things are all happening at the same time in Hickman's run.

[jackolover]

For people asking why Odin is not getting involved, I think that will be covered, just not... here. It will likely be covered in Last Days of Loki and Thors. But I do still think that the tree was a new world tree, so even if the gods are not involved in attempting to stop the incursions, they likely will be involved in rebuilding the universe afterwards.

Is the World Tree directly linked to Asgard? I haven't seen another one in Marvel stories. So the tree helps the universe spring into existence like Loki told Osborn?

[jackolover]

This issue was fantastic. Seeing the "deaths" and the last stand of Thor and Hyperion got me thinking.

Is it possible the further away from 616 they go, the further back (or forward) in time they travel? They just created what looks like the world tree...is it possible they are at the beginning of time? There is nothing that says all these things are all happening at the same time in Hickman's run.

It depends what the purpose of the mission, AIM sent them on. Was it to find the Beyonders in the present, or was it to go back to the start of the Incursions?

[hawkeyefan]

...and I addressed this in my post.

Yeah, the A>B>C thing is pretty much it, though.

The Beyonders' power clearly gives them some kind of power over the universal abstracts...those beings are particularly susceptible to the Beyonders' power.

When the Avengers showed up, the Beyonders actually faced them physically. They didn't expect any real resistance. But the beings we're talking about are some of the most powerful on Earth. They managed to take a couple out...but neither was truly conventional.

And ultimately, it doesn't even matter. Unless the tree comes into play later in the story.

Death scene? Sentry tearing Ares apart was a death scene. This was just another HICKMAN portrayal of a non-portrayal, just like Infinity non-portrayals. We saw a stream of Beyonders swarming out of a portal and in the distance we have to imagine what must be going on.

I was saying that IF this was Thor's death scene, I'd be okay with it. But since we don't actually see them die, I don't expect that they are actually dead.

[ShaokhaN]

Yeah, the A>B>C thing is pretty much it, though.

The Beyonders' power clearly gives them some kind of power over the universal abstracts...those beings are particularly susceptible to the Beyonders' power.

When the Avengers showed up, the Beyonders actually faced them physically. They didn't expect any real resistance. But the beings we're talking about are some of the most powerful on Earth. They managed to take a couple out...but neither was truly conventional.

And ultimately, it doesn't even matter. Unless the tree comes into play later in the story.

The "A>B>C thing" is not "it". There has to be an extremely solid reason for two Beyonders to lose to beings which are infinitely less powerful than them. It's not like the Beyonders came up to the abstracts with kryptonite, they simply out-powered them. Beings that powerful have no reason to lose to Thor's group unless there's some kind of huge plot device at play. We know fully-fed Galactus > Silver Surfer and Silver Surfer > an ant, but saying "HEY IT'S NOT BECAUSE A > B AND B > C THAT A > C" isn't exactly going to make it logical for an ant to beat a fully-fed Galactus. Saying the Beyonders were defeated because they "didn't expect any real resistance" doesn't say much since there should indeed not have been any resistance based on what we know of the characters. If Galactus is going to face an ant he's not going to expect resistance either, but the ant is still not going to win. There has to be a real reason for the weaker character to do damage to the vastly more powerful character.