New Avengers 32 *spoilers*

[Raye]

Is the World Tree directly linked to Asgard? I haven't seen another one in Marvel stories. So the tree helps the universe spring into existence like Loki told Osborn?

Something like that, yeah. During Fraction's run (what is it with Fracton's run in this discussion? weird) Silver Surfer came to Earth looking for a seed from the World Tree, because he thought it could feed Galactus forever, sparing all the worlds. But Odin refused, because if the seed was destroyed, then the universe could never be reborn if/when it was destroyed. Then there was a fight for the seed, and Loki hid it somewhere to keep it away from Galactus. We never did find out where. Now, this obviously contradicts that somewhat, because they weren't using the World Tree seed introduced there, but I can't see why the world tree itself would not function the same way....

[XPac]

How do you know they will not get a few panels? this event is far from over.

I don't know we won't see a few panels. I'm just saying IMO the story needs it and we haven't seen it thus far. If we do, fine

[Rosebunse]

Something like that, yeah. During Fraction's run (what is it with Fracton's run in this discussion? weird) Silver Surfer came to Earth looking for a seed from the World Tree, because he thought it could feed Galactus forever, sparing all the worlds. But Odin refused, because if the seed was destroyed, then the universe could never be reborn if/when it was destroyed. Then there was a fight for the seed, and Loki hid it somewhere to keep it away from Galactus. We never did find out where. Now, this obviously contradicts that somewhat, because they weren't using the World Tree seed introduced there, but I can't see why the world tree itself would not function the same way....

I know! And while I love Fraction as a writer, his Thor run was horrible! And yet it just keeps coming up! All I can think of is that he and Hickman collaborated enough for it to be meaningful.

[Raye]

Well, Fraction was on Thor at the same time that Hickman was doing FF, so it's entirely possible they were intending to tie things together even back then, though obviously plans have evolved somewhat.

[Rosebunse]

Well, Fraction was on Thor at the same time that Hickman was doing FF, so it's entirely possible they were intending to tie things together even back then, though obviously plans have evolved somewhat.

Probably, it's just that Fraction wasn't meant for Thor. He should be kept far, far away from Thor. But yes, considering how freaking long this has been planned for, it would be something to know what it was originally and what's changed and what's stayed the same.

[misterfranklin]

The "A>B>C thing" is not "it". There has to be an extremely solid reason for two Beyonders to lose to beings which are infinitely less powerful than them.

Evidently fighting Beyonders in "wild space" is like fighting Namor underwater - not a good idea. The multiversal Avengers fought them in regular space, where they are less powerful. This is referenced on panel ("Solid, and therefore in its most malleable state.")

[Ekie]

OCCASIONALLY. Not often.

In most instances I don't even care that Bast isn't involved, because obviously you don't want a god showing up to save the day. I get that gods generaly think they're above this sort of stuff and am fine with them ignoring it. Generally.

In this particular event, I think it bothers me for 2 reasons. Firstly because of the scope of it... entire multiverse ending effects Bast just as much as everyone else, and she saw it coming. Secondly a portion of the conflict literally landed in her home.

So to me it sort of makes Bast look bad. Though gods in general usually end up looking bad anyways (Thor being one of the exceptions), so I guess that's no big deal in the grand scheme of things.

To be fair. T'challa is her Champion. She intrusted him with this situation and has faith in him to help handle it which is kinda cool. He still don't know the extent of his power up and there may be something very vital to the event it provides.

[Ekie]

Humans can't seem to stop them either, but it's not stopping them from at least trying.

Humans have hope and faith.
That seems to always be the difference between comics god and humans

the gods know it's hopeless and would probably not even try

[ShaokhaN]

Evidently fighting Beyonders in "wild space" is like fighting Namor underwater - not a good idea. The multiversal Avengers fought them in regular space, where they are less powerful. This is referenced on panel ("Solid, and therefore in its most malleable state.")

Except like I said in my original post, each celestial host was destroyed in its own reality, not in "wild space", by one Beyonder for each host. This is on panel in NA #30: "in each [reality], a different Beyonder facing, and destroying, the Celestial host".

Also, the "solid, and therefore in its most malleable state" comment referred to the Beyonders themselves. This means that there are two possibilities: the first one is that Beyonders cannot be anything but solid in the space they were in, and in that case we can conclude 1. that they're extremely stupid for not being more careful, and 2. that the abstracts are downright retarded for fighting them in places where the Beyonders would not be similarly vulnerable. The second possibility is that Beyonders can adopt other forms than that solid form in the space they were in, and in that case we can conclude that they were even more stupid for adopting that form against beings that could harm them.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to make characters that can single-handedly destroy the entire race of Celestials from any universe, and together kill the frigging LIVING TRIBUNAL on the multiversal scale (not a single m-body but the multiversal Living Tribunal), there is absolutely no way these characters can be killed/neutralized by a small group of herald-level characters without prep. A legitimate plot device would be something similar to what happened in Secret Wars, namely an intellect such as Doom's working on a highly advanced device specially targeted at them (I have a feeling we may be up for something like that later). Even then, it would make the abstracts pretty stupid for not thinking of that, but at least there would be an explanation for the lesser characters overcoming the enormous power disparity. Here, there was nothing of the sort.

[Rosebunse]

Humans have hope and faith.
That seems to always be the difference between comics god and humans

the gods know it's hopeless and would probably not even try

Dude, have you ever read Norse myths? Those things are depressing. Most myths are. They're all about death and rebirth and how everyone is connected to their story and God help you if you got a bad role. Just look at how happy we all are on the Loki forums!

But to be fair, mortals in comics are fundamentally different creatures than immortals and and those beings higher up on the cosmic hierarchy. The gods may even be trying to figure out a way to stop it and just have decided to not tell the mortals, who they probably want to use to distract the Beyonders or something.

[XPac]

Humans have hope and faith.
That seems to always be the difference between comics god and humans

the gods know it's hopeless and would probably not even try

But several cosmics DID in fact step up and at least try to take on the Ivory Kings. They lost... but they tried.

For what it's worth, I would have thought if Asgard was going to go down they were going to go down the way Thor did. I thought they'd prefer going down fighting, regardless of how hopeless things seemingly were. But maybe there' still time for them to at least try. We'll see.

[XPac]

To be fair. T'challa is her Champion. She intrusted him with this situation and has faith in him to help handle it which is kinda cool. He still don't know the extent of his power up and there may be something very vital to the event it provides.

To me it's less of a question whether or not Bast has faith in T'Challa and more a question of whether or not T'Challa and Wakanda should have any faith in Bast.

[Darkspellmaster]

Given everything happening, I wouldn't be surprised if the seed and the world tree play a part in things at the end being pulled together. Bear in mind that that tree looks a lot like a sapling of Yggdrasill, and didn't Surtur screw it up during everything burns?

[robreedwrites]

The following is my opinion:

In terms of the Beyonders getting defeated, well, I think some folks should play Pokemon competitively at some point. Power doesn't mean crap if you aren't prepared for what your opponent hits you with. If you're prepped for laser blasts and brute force but then your opponent turns you into a tree, you lose.

Neither the Beyonders nor the Builder constructs have been clearly defined (nor do they need to be). Plus there's an Abyss here, and we have yet to see any more of her kind, in spite of having seen the Builders from other universes. Also, a single Ex Nihili singlehandedly wiped out all life on a planet by committing suicide during Infinity, and that's more destructive power than I've seen from any Celestial in the last five or so years.

This applies to actual fighting too. Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in a close but decisive victory. And then Frazier got smashed by George Foreman. It wasn't even close. It was similar to the way the Beyonders dominated the Celestials. But then Muhammad Ali and George Foreman fight, and George Foreman is the one that gets knocked out.

[misterfranklin]

Except like I said in my original post, each celestial host was destroyed in its own reality, not in "wild space", by one Beyonder for each host. This is on panel in NA #30: "in each [reality], a different Beyonder facing, and destroying, the Celestial host".

That panel needs to be taken in context. Here's what Pym says immediately before your quote: "We jumped into the nexus of real and wild space just in time to watch a single Beyonder confronting the last Celestials of the universe we were currently in. But the nexus was thin space. And as they battled, what divides one reality from the next began to fade. [Page turn] And like blurred, overlapping vision, I could see the same battle taking place in multiple realities." The only reason Pym even saw the other battles is because they were all taking place in similar thin spaces, nexuses of real and wild.

Also, the "solid, and therefore in its most malleable state" comment referred to the Beyonders themselves. This means that there are two possibilities: the first one is that Beyonders cannot be anything but solid in the space they were in, and in that case we can conclude 1. that they're extremely stupid for not being more careful, and 2. that the abstracts are downright retarded for fighting them in places where the Beyonders would not be similarly vulnerable. The second possibility is that Beyonders can adopt other forms than that solid form in the space they were in, and in that case we can conclude that they were even more stupid for adopting that form against beings that could harm them.

They underestimated their opposition. Arrogant antagonists often do in comics.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to make characters that can single-handedly destroy the entire race of Celestials from any universe, and together kill the frigging LIVING TRIBUNAL on the multiversal scale (not a single m-body but the multiversal Living Tribunal), there is absolutely no way these characters can be killed/neutralized by a small group of herald-level characters without prep. A legitimate plot device would be something similar to what happened in Secret Wars, namely an intellect such as Doom's working on a highly advanced device specially targeted at them (I have a feeling we may be up for something like that later). Even then, it would make the abstracts pretty stupid for not thinking of that, but at least there would be an explanation for the lesser characters overcoming the enormous power disparity. Here, there was nothing of the sort.

I'm sorry if you aren't willing to accept the idea that the Beyonders are omnipotent in wild space but can be defeated when they're solely in real space, but that's what the story so far seems to suggest. This is not all that different from Infinity Gauntlets and Manifolds being powerless outside their native universes. It explains why the Council of Reeds was able to crush a Beyonder with Sol's Anvil.