New Avengers 32 *spoilers*

[Gordonstar]

Or maybe they was given a tasteful death off panel.

[JKtheMac]

You're willfully ignoring the rest of my post. I rest my case.

Yes because thats one of the most glaring incorrect assumptions. To quote the most recent handbook:

The resulting fractured White Event on Earth-616 selected unobtrusive college student Kevin Connor as the recipient of the Star Brand avatar, instantaneously granting him immeasurable power.

Thats a big word. But lets look back at the older sources.

Untold Tales of the New Universe: Star Brand V2006

Ken Connell was dirt-biking one day when a mysterious old man confronted him in the woods and bestowed upon him a mark called the Star Brand. This tattoo gives its host godlike powers limited only to the wearers imagination -- a dilemma, since Ken is not the most imaginative mechanic in all of Pittsburgh.

Thats pretty powerful.


P.S.

Finally found the profile that is tucked in the back of an issue:

The Star Brand #13 V1988
Weapons: Kenneth Connell possesses an alien energy known as the Star Brand. This energy gives its possessor apparently infinite power. The power is only limited by the imagination of the user. Through use of the Star Brand, Connell has exhibited the power to fly at unlimited speeds, lift heavy objects (a railroad car, an automobile. a military aircraft, and others), and fire blasts of concussive energy at varying power levels up to an as yet unknown maximum amount (but at least equal to that of the force of a detonated tactical nuclear weapon).

[JKtheMac]

It doesn't change the fact that's it PIS.

I had to look this up "Plot Induced Stupidity". It made me chuckle. Writers don’t think like that, fans shouldn't either, it’s a mental trap that will lead to annoyance and disappointment. As far as I can tell you are accusing Hickman of getting Starbrand wrong or warping him in the interest of his story.

Bear in mind Hickman has been tasked to write this story. It is a massive undertaking that is already rewriting the cosmic forces of the Marvel universe and will result in a brand new cosmos and continuity. That is no small task, and he is doing it in a very interesting and self-consistent manner.

Yes things will be different but he is building from what we know and changing things in small and consistent ways. He chose to use a New Universal idea (something people often wish for in the MU) and import it into the MU to perform a specific role. It also pointed the way for this previously non-cannon character to be placed into the MU in future.

He can’t be held to a MU wacky interpretation of the starbrand as used by Ereshkigal. It is not even relevant to the New Universal - Star Brand avatar stories that he is basing his version on. Which was the critically acclaimed 80’s original.

[Lady Warp Spasm]

Epic.

Sign me up for a Thor + Hyperion ongoing NOW

You and me both. Because of that post I went ahead and ordered a few issues.

[bandoogiemanz]

I know there has been a lot of back and forth with the whole Starbrand thing, but I think to day Kevin killed that Beyonder is a little off. The Beyonder stabbed him through the chest/heart. It's not like Kevin intently used his power to kill that Beyonder, he exploded. I mean you can be crazy strong, but having a bomb explode in your face isn't anything to laugh at.

[DrTraveler]

I'm not splitting hairs, and I'm not basing my argument on incorrect assumptions either. All I presented were facts:

1. This Star Brand is not Ereshkigal. At no point were we told that Kevin Conner had as much power as Ereshkigal did.
2. The way Kevin Conner has been described as a Star Brand implied a much lower power level than Ereshkigal. Indeed, he was described as a "planetary defense system" and as capable of "destroying a planet". Not as capable of destroying galaxies, let alone universes, let alone the multiverse.
3. We've seen Hickman use a Star Brand before, and that Star Brand (an alternate Reed Richards) was incapable of defeating the Celestials that attacked the Council of Reeds. Alt. RR Star Brand was even killed by the said Celestials. All Star Brands are therefore not necessarily as powerful as Ereshkigal.

All of those are facts, not "incorrect assumptions".

Of course it's "up to" Hickman. Just like it was up to the writer of Spider-Man to have him defeat Firelord with his fists. It doesn't change the fact that's it PIS.

The Richard's Starbrand was taken out by the Celestials, but that doesn't mean much really. Take the world's strongest man and hit him with a bazooka, he goes boom. We assume invulnerability goes with immense power, but in comics that isn't the case.

I'm willing to let the Starbrand moment go because:
1. We don't know for sure the Beyonder was killed.
2. The Beyonder was in a physical (hence vulnerable) form.
3. Kevin was on the way out. It's a fairly well established principle of drama that parting shots are the most powerful. In Kevin's case, that makes sense as he can fully unleash at close range with no concern for reserving power or personal safety.

[TresDias]

And at no point are we told he has less i.e. incorrect assumption.

You're willfully ignoring the rest of my post. I rest my case.

The rest of your post seems to hinge on the word "capable" -- e.g. "Kevin Conner has been described as ... capable of 'destroying a planet' and "an alternate Reed Richards was incapable of defeating the Celestials."

For a comic fan, you're espousing an unrealistic view of what "capability" entails. You seem to be assuming that the outcome of a given situation precludes the possibility of any other outcome, and that if the event were to be repeated, the same results would follow each time. The very notion of the law of averages and the concept of entropy refute that.

You're leaving no room for variables in a situation that has a ton of them, starting with the imagination of the Starbrand's bearer.

Reed Richards -- any Reed Richards -- is one of the last people I would pick to give the Starbrand to. That's like giving him a Green Lantern ring. The point has been made before that the man is too preoccupied with the "rules of the universe" to wrap his head around power like his own son's -- power fueled by imagination.

Just having the Starbrand power isn't going to make Reed effectively use it. I dare say he would make for a worse showing than the average person.

Building off your "incapable of defeating Celestials" argument, were the heroes of Earth incapable of defeating Exitar in "Uncanny Avengers" -- until they killed him, at which point they magically became capable? Had they actually been incapable before or did they need to more effectively use what they had?

You seem to be using the description of Kevin as imposing an upper limit on what he is capable of, and that's not how it is written. That's not even what the word suggests. Galactus and the Celestials are capable of destroying a planet -- but they're also capable of far more than that. Describing them that way, though, gives an accurate picture without limiting them to nothing more.

Heck, if you were to ride that train of logic all the way, none of the mutants would have ever developed new uses for their powers. Sunspot wouldn't be flying.

To clarify, by the way, I'm not trying to make you like this development. I'm just correcting your assertions that there's no precedent for something like this or that it defies reason.

[ShaokhaN]

Yes because thats one of the most glaring incorrect assumptions.

Nothing about what you quoted was an assumption (and neither were the other facts in my post which you happened to ignore). The fact that "this Star Brand is not Ereshkigal" is not an assumption. The fact that "at no point were we told that Kevin Conner had as much power as Ereshkigal did" is not an assumption.

To quote the most recent handbook:

The resulting fractured White Event on Earth-616 selected unobtrusive college student Kevin Connor as the recipient of the Star Brand avatar, instantaneously granting him immeasurable power.

Thats a big word.

Yes, a huge word, I'm totally impressed. Maybe Star Brand should have thrown big words at the being who was just done defeating the multiversal Living Tribunal, in order to beat him even faster.

But lets look back at the older sources.

*proceeds to talk about another character*

I am not talking about Ereshkigal but about Kevin Conner. We've seen on-panel that not every Star Brand is equal in power.

I had to look this up "Plot Induced Stupidity". It made me chuckle. Writers don’t think like that, fans shouldn't either, it’s a mental trap that will lead to annoyance and disappointment. As far as I can tell you are accusing Hickman of getting Starbrand wrong or warping him in the interest of his story.

Bear in mind Hickman has been tasked to write this story. It is a massive undertaking that is already rewriting the cosmic forces of the Marvel universe and will result in a brand new cosmos and continuity. That is no small task, and he is doing it in a very interesting and self-consistent manner.

Yes things will be different but he is building from what we know and changing things in small and consistent ways. He chose to use a New Universal idea (something people often wish for in the MU) and import it into the MU to perform a specific role. It also pointed the way for this previously non-cannon character to be placed into the MU in future.

He can’t be held to a MU wacky interpretation of the starbrand as used by Ereshkigal. It is not even relevant to the New Universal - Star Brand avatar stories that he is basing his version on. Which was the critically acclaimed 80’s original.

I'm not sure how any of that is supposed to be a rebuttal to my position that it is PIS. If you don't think this was PIS, I'm very happy for you, and we can agree to disagree.

[ShaokhaN]

The Richard's Starbrand was taken out by the Celestials, but that doesn't mean much really. Take the world's strongest man and hit him with a bazooka, he goes boom. We assume invulnerability goes with immense power, but in comics that isn't the case.

I'm willing to let the Starbrand moment go because:
1. We don't know for sure the Beyonder was killed.
2. The Beyonder was in a physical (hence vulnerable) form.
3. Kevin was on the way out. It's a fairly well established principle of drama that parting shots are the most powerful. In Kevin's case, that makes sense as he can fully unleash at close range with no concern for reserving power or personal safety.

It's not simply that he was taken out by the Celestials but also that he was visibly not powerful enough to defeat them, contrary to Beyonders.

[ShaokhaN]

The rest of your post seems to hinge on the word "capable" -- e.g. "Kevin Conner has been described as ... capable of 'destroying a planet' and "an alternate Reed Richards was incapable of defeating the Celestials."

I'm not sure why you keep replying to me even though we already agreed to disagree and you're just repeating things we've already discussed before (and also adding a few incorrect/misleading statements).

For a comic fan, you're espousing an unrealistic view of what "capability" entails. You seem to be assuming that the outcome of a given situation precludes the possibility of any other outcome, and that if the event were to be repeated, the same results would follow each time. The very notion of the law of averages and the concept of entropy refute that.

No, that is not a view I'm espousing (at list not in comics).

You're leaving no room for variables in a situation that has a ton of them, starting with the imagination of the Starbrand's bearer.

Reed Richards -- any Reed Richards -- is one of the last people I would pick to give the Starbrand to. That's like giving him a Green Lantern ring. The point has been made before that the man is too preoccupied with the "rules of the universe" to wrap his head around power like his own son's -- power fueled by imagination.

Just having the Starbrand power isn't going to make Reed effectively use it. I dare say he would make for a worse showing than the average person.

This was an alternate Reed Richards of which we know nothing about. Who is making assumptions again?

Building off your "incapable of defeating Celestials" argument, were the heroes of Earth incapable of defeating Exitar in "Uncanny Avengers" -- until they killed him, at which point they magically became capable? Had they actually been incapable before or did they need to more effectively use what they had?

They didn't magically become capable, they managed to get the magical axe which allowed them to kill him. In any case, the way you're using this example is irrelevant to the position I'm defending (which is not that things can only go one way in the MU, which we know isn't the case).

You seem to be using the description of Kevin as imposing an upper limit on what he is capable of, and that's not how it is written. That's not even what the word suggests. Galactus and the Celestials are capable of destroying a planet -- but they're also capable of far more than that. Describing them that way, though, gives an accurate picture without limiting them to nothing more.

I did not say that the description imposed an upper limit on what he is capable of - that's determined by the writer (or rather by any writer which ends up writing the character). The description, however, does point towards a certain level of power. You don't say of a weight-lifter "he's capable of lifting 500 grams" if he can lift way more than that. He is capable of lifting 500 grams, but nobody would present his strength like that since it would obviously be completely misleading. Star Brand was defined from the start as a planet destroyer (and this was consistent with his feats in the books), which is impressive in its own right but is still way below what we've seen from the Beyonders.

To clarify, by the way, I'm not trying to make you like this development. I'm just correcting your assertions that there's no precedent for something like this or that it defies reason.

You're not correcting anything, since I never asserted that there were no precedent for this - there are plenty of examples of PIS and CIS in comic books. And I've repeatedly explained why it did defy reason for the heroes to defeat two beings capable of taking out the multiversal Living Tribunal on the technicality that they were in their "solid form", but we already agreed to disagree on that so I'm not sure why you keep replying to me.

[Gordonstar]

I'm sure Star Brand holders can kill anything if they tried. It was the most powerful object during the early 90s Quasar run, and is considered a big deal.

The Reed with one could have used a weaker version of it, or didn't really used it it's full power.

[hawkeyefan]

Nothing about what you quoted was an assumption (and neither were the other facts in my post which you happened to ignore). The fact that "this Star Brand is not Ereshkigal" is not an assumption. The fact that "at no point were we told that Kevin Conner had as much power as Ereshkigal did" is not an assumption.

I just have one question based on the above...at no point are we told that Kevin is as powerful as Ereshkigal, this is true. Nor are we told that he is not as powerful as Ereshkigal. To my recollection, we are not given any definitive assessment of Kevin's power. All we know is that he was designed to be a planetary defense system, and because of that he has the power to destroy a planet.

Why do you take that as the limit of his ability? I mean, Captain America was designed to help win WWII, and we have seen him win space battles between intergalactic forces.

[ShaokhaN]

I just have one question based on the above...at no point are we told that Kevin is as powerful as Ereshkigal, this is true. Nor are we told that he is not as powerful as Ereshkigal. To my recollection, we are not given any definitive assessment of Kevin's power. All we know is that he was designed to be a planetary defense system, and because of that he has the power to destroy a planet.

Why do you take that as the limit of his ability? I mean, Captain America was designed to help win WWII, and we have seen him win space battles between intergalactic forces.

I addressed this in my reply to TresDias and I don't have much more to add at this point. Like I said, if you disagree with me, that's fine.

[hawkeyefan]

I addressed this in my reply to TresDias and I don't have much more to add at this point. Like I said, if you disagree with me, that's fine.

Okay, I missed that in all the back and forth.

[TresDias]

Nothing about what you quoted was an assumption (and neither were the other facts in my post which you happened to ignore). The fact that "this Star Brand is not Ereshkigal" is not an assumption. The fact that "at no point were we told that Kevin Conner had as much power as Ereshkigal did" is not an assumption.

Sure hasn't stopped you from assuming that every Starbrand must be equally shitty at fighting Abstracts. Even though Ereshkigal -- the one you acknowledge as being powerful enough to do that -- displayed profoundly greater competence as a Starbrand than others who had previously been branded with exactly the same version of the power source she received.

To quote the most recent handbook:

The resulting fractured White Event on Earth-616 selected unobtrusive college student Kevin Connor as the recipient of the Star Brand avatar, instantaneously granting him immeasurable power.

Thats a big word.

Yes, a huge word, I'm totally impressed. Maybe Star Brand should have thrown big words at the being who was just done defeating the multiversal Living Tribunal, in order to beat him even faster.

Maybe you should respond to what people trying to discuss with you in good faith actually say to you instead of disrespecting them with "witty" intellectual dishonesty that ignores their observations that prove you wrong.

While doing that, you may want to reacquaint yourself with the plot you're trying to complain about since that lone Beyonder didn't kill the Living Tribunal all by himself.

If JK has more self-respect than I do, he'll tell you where you can go and what you can do when you get there rather than continue disrespecting himself by wasting his time engaging with someone who thinks that kind of crap passes for debate. You have shamed yourself, and I feel terribly sorry for you right now.

I am not talking about Ereshkigal but about Kevin Conner. We've seen on-panel that not every Star Brand is equal in power.

It's almost as though that's the whole schtick! Like the power's effectiveness varies from user to user depending on their affinity with it!

If only there were official descriptions around that could confirm that for us!

If only! ::sob::

That was you, by the way.

And this is me giving you a taste of your own medicine.

I'm not sure why you keep replying to me even though we already agreed to disagree and you're just repeating things we've already discussed before (and also adding a few incorrect/misleading statements).

And I'm disagreeing with you, as agreed upon. =P

I keep replying to you because you insist on being verifiably wrong about something easily verifiable, and, frankly, I don't want the thread for tomorrow's issue to get derailed with this crap in case you're still pissed off about this erroneous gripe you invented.

You're leaving no room for variables in a situation that has a ton of them, starting with the imagination of the Starbrand's bearer.

Reed Richards -- any Reed Richards -- is one of the last people I would pick to give the Starbrand to. That's like giving him a Green Lantern ring. The point has been made before that the man is too preoccupied with the "rules of the universe" to wrap his head around power like his own son's -- power fueled by imagination.

Just having the Starbrand power isn't going to make Reed effectively use it. I dare say he would make for a worse showing than the average person.

This was an alternate Reed Richards of which we know nothing about. Who is making assumptions again?

Who is ignoring all the most pertinent parts of those paragraphs to try zinging someone on an adjunct matter that doesn't address the primary point being made? Oh, it's you! Doing that thing. Again. Like you did to JK. That other time it wasn't witty.

I don't appreciate that. It's intellectual dishonesty, and you're better than that.

If you're going to keep harping on the fact that this Reed (i.e. a Starbrand) was defeated by a Celestial, I'm going to say, "No kidding. You're proving my point." You think you're highlighting some great inconsistency when all you're highlighting is the "Powers" section in the character profile for every Starbrand ever.

Not all of them display the same power level despite having the same powers. That's sort of the whole premise of the Starbrand role. If you put one of David Gilmour's guitars in my hands, I'm not going to be able to play "Another Brick In the Wall" no matter how much you insist that it's PIS if I don't.

They didn't magically become capable, they managed to get the magical axe which allowed them to kill him.

A magical axe that was in play the first time too. So, yeah, they just made better use of the available resources the second time around rather than attaining Special Snowflake Status.

In any case, the way you're using this example is irrelevant to the position I'm defending (which is not that things can only go one way in the MU, which we know isn't the case).

Well, according to you, every Starbrand should lose to a Celestial despite even the Living Tribunal wanting to avoid fighting one. Never mind that we've seen vast differences in power display from different people branded with the same Starbrand (the one from the New Universe).

I did not say that the description imposed an upper limit on what he is capable of - that's determined by the writer (or rather by any writer which ends up writing the character). The description, however, does point towards a certain level of power. You don't say of a weight-lifter "he's capable of lifting 500 grams" if he can lift way more than that. He is capable of lifting 500 grams, but nobody would present his strength like that since it would obviously be completely misleading. Star Brand was defined from the start as a planet destroyer (and this was consistent with his feats in the books), which is impressive in its own right but is still way below what we've seen from the Beyonders.

That description can be perfectly consistent with and an appropriate description of the best we can expect from Kevin Conner on an average day. That does not impose an upper limit on the best he is capable of, as the Starbrand itself goes way beyond that. Kevin may not be particularly adept at tapping into it, but he has access to far more power.

And if he's not going to tap into something more in his dying moments while pissed off and watching his friends about to be killed -- if he's just going to stand there and not try to do something more with that amazing power of his that even his final words speak of never fully understanding -- then that would be some PIS.

To clarify, by the way, I'm not trying to make you like this development. I'm just correcting your assertions that there's no precedent for something like this or that it defies reason.

You're not correcting anything, since I never asserted that there were no precedent for this - there are plenty of examples of PIS and CIS in comic books.

The "this" in my sentence was in reference to the Starbrand power being demonstrated to exceed the Abstracts, just like a Beyonder.

And I've repeatedly explained why it did defy reason for the heroes to defeat two beings capable of taking out the multiversal Living Tribunal on the technicality that they were in their "solid form", but we already agreed to disagree on that so I'm not sure why you keep replying to me.

You do recall that it took more than one Beyonder to do that, right? We were presented with what could very well have been all the Beyonders taking down each universe's Celestials, then each universe's Abstracts, and then finally converging on the Living Tribunal himself in a really long battle that raged across the whole of the multiverse.

Yes, the Beyonders are powerful, but right now you're making a complaint comparable to crying PIS over, say, Thanos being able to beat Rogue or Thor even though they -- along with many others -- defeated Exitar. They didn't do it alone, and it's safe to say that even Ereshkigal wouldn't have been able to defeat the entire Beyonder race, the same as it's safe to say the entire force who took on Exitar would beat Thanos without it being PIS.

All you've managed to do here is point out that a power defined as "potentially limitless but effectiveness varies from user to user" varies from user to user in its effectiveness. Just the way the definition promised.

Sorry if I'm not patting you on the back and labeling you as London's next great detective.

I'm sure Star Brand holders can kill anything if they tried. It was the most powerful object during the early 90s Quasar run, and is considered a big deal.

Seriously, yes, thank you. Someone else who read those Quasar books.

The Reed with one could have used a weaker version of it, or didn't really used it it's full power.

That Reed just didn't use it to its full effect. The powers of the Starbrand from the New Universe have been described in the same way as the powers of Hickman's Starbrand. It's the same kind of power, but not everyone makes equally effective use of it.

Even the power of the Starbrand from the New Universe was used to different effect depending on who it was branded to at the time. We saw it with four different carriers, with Ereshkigal being far and away the most effective.