New Avengers 32 *spoilers*

[vitruvian]

All I was pointing out with that is that we've seen different Star Brands exhibit different levels of power, and therefore that we can't assume every Star Brand is capable of challenging the multiversal Living Tribunal. What you wrote with regards to the alt. RR SB are suppositions.

We've seen different Starbrands exhibit different levels of power, true enough, but everything we've seen suggests that's down to the limitations of the individual wielders' imagination, not the potential power level of the Starbrand power source itself. From the 80s Starbrand on, that's how it was presented... and note that with the 80s Starbrand, Ereshkigal was able to do far more with it than its original user in the New Universe.

In light of that factor, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch that the current/deceased Starbrand might be only megapowerful under normal circumstances, but be able to tap into more of the power's potential when dying and facing Beyonders. Indeed, if the limitation is the wielder's imagination, then being able to take out one's current opponent doesn't actually take a lot of imagining, does it?

[ShaokhaN]

Dude, you refuse to even keep your argument straight. You keep saying "There's no way Kevin Conner could kill a being that took out the Living Tribunal. This is so PIS that I can't even" and then the whole of your last response was --

"I never said any of that! I never refuted the potential of the Starbrand! I didn't claim that a Starbrand couldn't take out such an entity! ... It's still totally PIS and defies reason and all the laws of God and man, though. ::snicker::"

Really, man? Are you trying to troll?

Ah, another deformation of my positions (and of my way of expressing as well, because you apparently could not resist going for another cheap shot).

My position has not moved an inch from the start: I consider it PIS/CIS for a dozen Ex Nihili, an Abyss and the Kevin Conner Star Brand to take out two Beyonders on the technicality that they were in their "solid form".

In addition, since someone mentioned Ereshkigal, I responded that we have seen that not all Star Brands exhibit the same level of power.

This has been absolutely consistent in all of my posts. NA #32 did not feature Ereshkigal but Kevin Conner. Where am I supposed to have contradicted myself?

You could have ended it at any time by picking a consistent position and having the good grace to acknowledge when the position had been defeated. Instead of constantly reaffirming a position that you're opposing while inexplicably pretending that you aren't opposing it.

Like I just explained to you (because apparently reading my posts properly was too hard), my position has been consistent from the start. It has also not been "defeated", whatever that's supposed to mean.

Are you ready to agree to disagree and leave it at that yet, or do you just have to keep on going?

[DrTraveler]

All I was pointing out with that is that we've seen different Star Brands exhibit different levels of power, and therefore that we can't assume every Star Brand is capable of challenging the multiversal Living Tribunal. What you wrote with regards to the alt. RR SB are suppositions.

Of course with the Starbranded Reed all we have are suppositions. We see him for is what... a few panels? IIRC he has literally zero dialogue nor do we see him really cut loose with his powers.

On the other hand, we do have the Reeds mention they had "crushed" a Beyonder using Sol's Anvil, which we have seen in action. It's an amazing powerful weapon for sure. But given we'd seen Kevin destroy a fleet alone in Infinity and some of the other stuff we've seen, I can easily imagine that matching Sol's Anvil is within the range of his powers if he's really pushing himself to cut loose.

Now, this comes with two caveats: 1. We don't know exactly what "crushed" means in the context of what the Reeds were discussing. It is likely that they said crushed because they did not in fact KILL the Beyonder in question, but again that's guesswork. 2. We do not know for sure Kevin killed this Beyonder.

All that said, when I read that scene that did not stand out as something completely outside the realm of possibility for Kevin. Thor and Hyperion lasting more than 5 seconds into the fight with the hordes of Ivory Kings or Steve taking out Shang-Chi duplicates like Hand ninjas is a bit of a cheat.

[ShaokhaN]

We've seen different Starbrands exhibit different levels of power, true enough, but everything we've seen suggests that's down to the limitations of the individual wielders' imagination, not the potential power level of the Starbrand power source itself. From the 80s Starbrand on, that's how it was presented... and note that with the 80s Starbrand, Ereshkigal was able to do far more with it than its original user in the New Universe.

In light of that factor, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch that the current/deceased Starbrand might be only megapowerful under normal circumstances, but be able to tap into more of the power's potential when dying and facing Beyonders. Indeed, if the limitation is the wielder's imagination, then being able to take out one's current opponent doesn't actually take a lot of imagining, does it?

Again, we saw an alternate RR apparently incapable of doing what you just said didn't take a lot of imagining. We've also seen the Star Brand mythos be readapted by Hickman into a "builder system" producing a weapon, a "defense system of planetary scale" (Avengers #8 - not "galactic scale", "universal scale", or "multiversal scale", but planetary scale). Finally, we were told that the system was broken when it made Kevin Connor into a Star Brand.

These are facts, not assumptions. All I'm saying is that we therefore cannot simply assume that all Star Brands are capable of the challenging the multiversal Living Tribunal. We were not told that Kevin Conner's power was at that level.

[ShaokhaN]

Of course with the Starbranded Reed all we have are suppositions. We see him for is what... a few panels? IIRC he has literally zero dialogue nor do we see him really cut loose with his powers.

On the other hand, we do have the Reeds mention they had "crushed" a Beyonder using Sol's Anvil, which we have seen in action. It's an amazing powerful weapon for sure. But given we'd seen Kevin destroy a fleet alone in Infinity and some of the other stuff we've seen, I can easily imagine that matching Sol's Anvil is within the range of his powers if he's really pushing himself to cut loose.

Now, this comes with two caveats: 1. We don't know exactly what "crushed" means in the context of what the Reeds were discussing. It is likely that they said crushed because they did not in fact KILL the Beyonder in question, but again that's guesswork. 2. We do not know for sure Kevin killed this Beyonder.

All that said, when I read that scene that did not stand out as something completely outside the realm of possibility for Kevin. Thor and Hyperion lasting more than 5 seconds into the fight with the hordes of Ivory Kings or Steve taking out Shang-Chi duplicates like Hand ninjas is a bit of a cheat.

I agree with you that if all that we knew about Beyonders was that individual ones could be "crushed" by Sol's Anvil, then I would have much less of a problem with the Kevin Conner Star Brand being apparently able to defeat one in its "solid form".

What we saw from the Beyonders seems to suggest that them being defeated by Sol's Anvil should also be rather implausible, though. Such a weapon was unable to do anything more to the Mad Celestials than disassemble them (although perhaps it was not as powerful as the one the Council of Reeds used). In any case, and like I've said repeatedly, I'm perfectly fine with other people disagreeing with my position and seeing the two Beyonders' defeat to a few Ex Nihili, an Abyss, and Kevin Connor's Star Brand as plausible.

[vitruvian]

Of course with the Starbranded Reed all we have are suppositions. We see him for is what... a few panels? IIRC he has literally zero dialogue nor do we see him really cut loose with his powers.

On the other hand, we do have the Reeds mention they had "crushed" a Beyonder using Sol's Anvil, which we have seen in action. It's an amazing powerful weapon for sure. But given we'd seen Kevin destroy a fleet alone in Infinity and some of the other stuff we've seen, I can easily imagine that matching Sol's Anvil is within the range of his powers if he's really pushing himself to cut loose.

If Sol's Anvil actually gets all its power from the Sun, then evidently crushing a Beyonder is easier than destroying a planet, and Starbrand is more than up to the job. After all, calculations of the amount of energy required to actually pull a Death Star on an Earth-sized planet have it take a good week's worth of the Sun's total power output, expended in less than a second:

http://scienceblogs.com/builtonfacts...he-death-star/

So, what Starbrand can do at any time, Sol's Anvil would have to charge up for (assuming it even has the storage capacity) a week, multiplied by the inverse of whatever percentage of the Sun's energy it captures, in order to do the same.

[vitruvian]

Again, we saw an alternate RR apparently incapable of doing what you just said didn't take a lot of imagining. We've also seen the Star Brand mythos be readapted by Hickman into a "builder system" producing a weapon, a "defense system of planetary scale" (Avengers #8 - not "galactic scale", "universal scale", or "multiversal scale", but planetary scale). Finally, we were told that the system was broken when it made Kevin Connor into a Star Brand.

These are facts, not assumptions. All I'm saying is that we therefore cannot simply assume that all Star Brands are capable of the challenging the multiversal Living Tribunal. We were not told that Kevin Conner's power was at that level.

Nor were we ever told it wasn't. Again, the line since the concept was introduced was that the power itself was essentially infinite, but its uses were limited by the imagination of the person using it. Conner may never have performed such a feat before, but that doesn't mean that it's a big stretch that he was capable of it.

[JKtheMac]

I presented you with facts, not assumptions, and all of those facts come from Hickman canon.

Wrong facts! To quote the superflow station in newuniversal #1 "There is a paradigm shift. Everything you know has changed. Please remain calm."

[ShaokhaN]

Nor were we ever told it wasn't. Again, the line since the concept was introduced was that the power itself was essentially infinite, but its uses were limited by the imagination of the person using it. Conner may never have performed such a feat before, but that doesn't mean that it's a big stretch that he was capable of it.

vitruvian, I addressed this and why we can't simply take for granted that Kevin Connor's power was infinite in my previous post. If you want to assume that it was, that fine and that's your assumption. If you don't think that it's a big stretch that he was capable of defeating one of the guys who just took out the multiversal Living Tribunal, on the technicality that he was in his "solid form", that's also fine. I disagree.

Wrong facts! To quote the superflow station in newuniversal #1 "There is a paradigm shift. Everything you know has changed. Please remain calm."

None of those facts were wrong. If you're going to argue the opposite, prove them wrong instead of quoting irrelevant sentences.

[JKtheMac]

So I have read the newuniversal material now. At least I now know its not capitilised and there is no space between new and universal. Yay!

Anyway, for an incomplete story over ten issues with three writers it is still quite an interesting read. Not sure i would recommend it all. Not sure it sheds much light here. What I did learn is what the most recent idea for the superflow was and that is not quite so easy to put in words.

What is stated in the book amounts to it being an artificial system made up of cosmic scale strands which seem to pervade the multiverse. It is described poetically as "Where sentients go when they dream." and other such things. Essentially it seems to be a meduim in which paradigms can change.

Earth is moving through a strand and the paradigm is changing. Basically it is a singularity story in which the shift appears to have an external origin. BUT the heavy hint is that the multiversal worlds that have crossed into the new paradigm may have created the superflow in the first place. This is only a nascent idea that is not fully expressed or explored but it seems to be where they were heading with it.

They also emphatically place the newuniversal Earth in the Marvel Multiverse and both Warren Ellis and Keiron Gillen place characters in the stories to make this clear.

[JKtheMac]

None of those facts were wrong. If you're going to argue the opposite, prove them wrong instead of quoting irrelevant sentences.

No you misunderstand me. I am saying those facts are not the ones that matter. They are not the right facts to be basing an argument on.

[JKtheMac]

So IF, and it is a big IF, Hickman is expanding on the Superflow ideas as a central part of the whole Secret Wars storyline it might possibly suggest that The Beyonders could be the post singularity sentients that built the superflow. So The Builders may be an ancient non-transcendent race that have attempted to subvert the system for their own half forgotten plans.

Could be totally off base of course.

But there are certain similarities between the superflow strands and the idea of a world tree, and that seems to resonate with this issue so who knows. Let's see where Hickman takes this. He certainly hasn't chosen to tell stories about the superflow and a White Event by accident.

[ShaokhaN]

No you misunderstand me. I am saying those facts are not the ones that matter. They are not the right facts to be basing an argument on.

Ok, personally am I of the opinion that Hickman 616 canon matters when trying to explain things that happen in Hickman 616 canon, but we can agree to disagree.

[JKtheMac]

Ok, personally am I of the opinion that Hickman 616 canon matters when trying to explain things that happen in Hickman 616 canon, but we can agree to disagree.

The benefit of looking at it my way is you don't have to be upset that Hickman twisted the story.

[TresDias]

The benefit of looking at it my way is you don't have to be upset that Hickman twisted the story.

Not only that, but it just makes good sense to conclude that a power source in one Marvel universe does the same thing in another. You wouldn't demand confirmation that an Infinity Gauntlet worked the same way or call it PIS that someone in another universe defeated Earth's heroes with a Cosmic Cube.

In this case, it's not even like the power source in question is native to the 616 or any other universe. The Starbrand comes from the Superflow, which is yet another reason to expect it to be consistent across realities.

That then gets triple reinforced when you have Official Handbook entries and the like (i.e. the stuff you quoted), telling us that they work the same.