New Avengers 32 *spoilers*

[Kirby Krackle]

So still no explanation on why Thor is "unworthy", was it just an excuse to get it off him to give it to Female Thor?

That's to be explained in Thor.

[Chainsaw Vigilante]

Could Hickman get a grip on his power levels already?

If the Beyonders are able to kill the Cosmic Entities, as well as the freaking Living Tribunal, how do they even NOTICE Hyperion, Thor and co?
Stupid.

I'm not even going to try to make sense of it all as it doesn't really make any practical logical sense and I'm just going to enjoy the ride.
Maybe their offense is also far greater than their defense. Someone brought up a snake and mongoose analogy, though that doesn't really work in the case of fundamental forces of reality; but I think it's best to just power down the over analytical parts of our brains and enjoy the story as best we can.

Since we know they can be killed, they can be divided and conquered, which is going to be what the mortals/humans are going to have to do.

I'm also glad that Thor and Cap are getting treated well, though I wouldn't really blame Remender for trying to replace Cap (the same with him being saddled with the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver not being mutants thing), he's just done his best to make it work (and at least Falcon is a good existing character with real history who has been Cap before).

[DrTraveler]

And may I just take a moment to give enormous props to Jonathan Hickman. Other Marvel writers, in their attempt to write cliche', headline grabbing stories took some of the most important pieces of the MU off the board for what is Marvel's biggest event arguably ever, and not only did Hickman write around it with absolutely incredible expertise and keep the main event running, he used it to springboard his story and make it even better.


That is real, real talent and he deserves loads of credit. Im sure Jason Aaron is on the phone complaining to Marvel as we speak that Hickman refuses to use his Lady Thor in this major event, but oh well. Aaron and Remender tried to take two of the biggest cards out of the deck and Hickman played them anyways, and it's been wonderful.

I do agree, Hickman is giving a Master's class on incorporating in Universe continuity and adaptability. I've enjoyed the heck out of his use of Odinson and Rogers.

[robreedwrites]

I'm not even going to try to make sense of it all as it doesn't really make any practical logical sense and I'm just going to enjoy the ride.
Maybe their offense is also far greater than their defense. Someone brought up a snake and mongoose analogy, though that doesn't really work in the case of fundamental forces of reality; but I think it's best to just power down the over analytical parts of our brains and enjoy the story as best we can.

Since we know they can be killed, they can be divided and conquered, which is going to be what the mortals/humans are going to have to do.

I'm also glad that Thor and Cap are getting treated well, though I wouldn't really blame Remender for trying to replace Cap (the same with him being saddled with the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver not being mutants thing), he's just done his best to make it work (and at least Falcon is a good existing character with real history who has been Cap before).

I would contend that the analogy makes more sense since we're dealing with a bunch of fictional constructs. We also have to factor in that we have an Abyss, and that she was the last one in our universe. We have yet to see any with the non-616 Builders either, so it's possible that she was the last one. It seems that as a brother-and-sister pair, that the powers of Abyssi and Ex Nihili worked in tandem, so Ex Nihili with an Abyss in tow are much more powerful than they were alone.

We also have evidence that the Builder Systems were glass hammers, capable of incredible acts of power, but fairly fragile in comparison.

Anyway, this was a beautiful issue. It really brought together a number of threads and closure to some characters that I had grown fond of (namely Ex Nihilo and Abyss). I still don't get quite what the Incursions are about (especially since the Beyonders use blue incursions and Rabum Alal's are red), but I figure we'll either get an explanation as to their origin when we find out what happened to Doom to make him Rabum Alal, or we won't find out as it is BEYOND us.

[vitruvian]

So, the last two panels were interesting. I thought the big flash of light was the last burst of power from Hyperion and Thor. However, if you look at the portal that the Beyonders came out of at the beginning of the issue, they look fairly identical, and for some reason all of the Beyonders and both the heros disappeared in the last panel. Then I thought about how their futile resistance intrigued a Beyonder. Teleported to Battleworld?

Remember, the Incursion zones have been vanishing a little bit later than the rest of their universes for a while now, suggesting that they're already being taken to Battleworld.

[vitruvian]

So still no explanation on why Thor is "unworthy", was it just an excuse to get it off him to give it to Female Thor?

No, but whenever it is revealed in Thor, it will have to be something where it makes sense that his actions here could have rendered him worthy again.

[Knives]

You haven't seen the rats I have.

"A rat will kill a cat and carry it in it's mouth, if it feels so inclined."

Then again I live on the worse edge of Detroit, we probably have mutant rats or something.


Yeah, that tree better have a key role, I'll miss Ex Nihilo and Abyss.

#%$& sure this is a rat?

* If we follow the fashion probably are not mutants, but the product of an alien green mist.

* I will also miss Ex Nihilo and Abyss was for a short time but left their mark.

[klefmung]

Remember, the Incursion zones have been vanishing a little bit later than the rest of their universes for a while now, suggesting that they're already being taken to Battleworld.

Per haps this indicates that Thor and Hyperion are the first two 616 characters to get there. I wonder what part they pop up on if no 616 zone is there yet.

[shgs]

Wouldn't that be explained in the Thor comic instead of New Avengers?

Edit; shgs beat me to it.

That's to be explained in Thor.

Great minds and all that

[Rosebunse]

Sweet baby Nightmask, my thoughts exactly! On that note, Calvin would have been a much better Great Destroyer than Doom, but maybe that's just me.
In all honesty though, it would be pretty devastating if the entire collapse of Marvel reality boiled down to a kid playing with blocks on some higher-than-multiversal plane .

I loved this issue, and feel I have to acknowledge that, in my eyes, this thread contains some of the best discussion/explanations I've seen on these forums yet. For the record, I absolutely agree that we fans tend to lend too much credit to the "Who Would Win in a Fight" mentality that comes with ranking power levels - but in comic books and in life, it's never that straightforward. I like the analogies to snakes/spiders, and also think of Rock-Paper-Scissors. Different characters match up to each other differently, based not only on relative strengths and weaknesses, but also on tactical/external variations (different battlefields, for example). One of the biggest themes throughout comic book history has been that any fight can be won, no matter how impossible the odds may seem. And how many times have we seen some variant of the Beyonders' "Why do you fight the hopeless fight?" speech? I think it's pretty amazing that this event - which, admittedly, has at times been chock-full of PIS, decompression, and over-exposition - has also been able to produce real moments of moral turmoil, total despair, and in this issue, a glimmer of hope.

One additional thought: I really wish our first introduction to the Beyonders had been with Deodato doing the artwork, and not the cartoony, underwhelming versions we first saw a few issues ago.

There's just something about what Hickman's doing that feels so...so final. And I feel like if we are to equate the Beyonders to the writers and, to some extent, the audience, then in effect, we're the ones telling that to Thor and Hyperion. We're telling them that their lives aren't worth much and that whatever they do, it won't be enough. They're just simple comic book characters, and we are their masters...

Of course, this is someone who was destroyed by Gillen's Journey into Mystery, so I may be biased.

Per haps this indicates that Thor and Hyperion are the first two 616 characters to get there. I wonder what part they pop up on if no 616 zone is there yet.

I image they would land where the new 616 will be. Of course, them getting there early gives Thor time to meet the other Thors and for something to happen to Hyperion.

[Biclopcicle]

I guess if the Cabal can "fall" and yet survive, so too can Odinson and Hyperion. Since they're in the grasp of the Beyonders, they could be either destroyed or preserved based on their curiosity and the nature of the "experiment."

We know that a) "domes" appear at EVERY incursion site (red or blue) and b) that there is a slight delay between earth destruction at the incursion site and the end of the two universes. As many posters have surmised, this suggests that battleworld is actively being collected/constructed. But by whom? If only by the Beyonders, this means Doom/RA is probably not behind the red incursions. If he is, then maybe each side is gathering parts separately and they will both become part of battleworld. Even less likely is that Doom alone is building battleworld and the Beyonders' experiment involves complete destruction of everything.

In NA 31, what was MM referring to when he said everything they've built will be taken down? The army of black swans, or pieces of battleworld? Still a lot unanswered, and we may not get a significant chunk of it until June.

[Darkspellmaster]

Anyone else find Starbrand's demise very reminecent of Firestorms death back in DC before 52 started?

Thor being worthy again, this should be interesting...also may tie into some points pre shift over to make him lose his worthy aspect. I wonder about all this. Nice to note that he's got the arm missing. I wonder about Hyperion too, if Thor doesn't die, then he's probably going to be okay as well.

Per haps this indicates that Thor and Hyperion are the first two 616 characters to get there. I wonder what part they pop up on if no 616 zone is there yet.

This actually makes sense. If they do end up there first it might help the other characters get there eventually.

[jphamlore]

So still no explanation on why Thor is "unworthy", was it just an excuse to get it off him to give it to Female Thor?

My theory is Nick Fury told Thor Odinson the truth, that he was incapable of defending Midgard. That shattered Thor Odinson's identity, what he had been living for. This was very recently after a storyline in Aaron's Thor where the Odinson had failed to stop the destruction of Broxton, Oklahoma. Thus the Hammer passes to another, who many have guessed is a native of MIdgard, Roz Solomon, a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent who will fight for the environment and Earth against Roxxon and it's CEO Dario Agger / Minotaur.

When the Odinson had resolved this was the moment and the hour he would die in battle and go to Valhalla, he had relieved himself of his burden of not being able to defend Midgard, and thus became worthy again.

[jphamlore]

So when Johnny Storm was overwhelmed by the hordes of Annihilus and of the Negative Zone, that meant he was dead, dead too, huh? Well I guess he was sort of dead, then brought back alive, over and over ... But Johnny Storm after being dead did get better in Hickman's run.

One can compare and contrast how Thor Odinson goes to what he thinks is his final battle in another Hickman book, Hickman's Ultimates, where Ultimate Thor stands with his brother Loki to go to their expected death against Ultimate Reed's Children. There was an awesome emotional moment there too as Ultimate Loki confesses that he regretted everything.

I am pleased that these Beyonders explicitly mentioned they are conducting an experiment on the Multiverse. Thus my earlier conjecture still might be true that the Beyonders are seeking an equivalent to what physicists seek in today's universe, what lies beyond the singularity at the beginning and end of time. In this world physicists keep probing further and further back to x seconds after the Big Bang; where I think these Beyonders are probing to see what happens when a Multiverse dies and possibly is reborn. As Hank Pym said, the Beyonders, the lords of white space, "questing for the last light."

[Tazpocalapse]

Another way to create new powers just like the terrigen mist ? not a bad idea

Yep, what if it was used on a multiversal level. All kinds of things could come from that.I would love to see something like the white event being a massive clash between Starbrand and a powerful Marvel U entity.