Miles Morales joins post-Secret Wars Avengers

[Confuzzled]

The whole point of Watchmen was to show superheroes in a more real world setting . . . and how it doesn't really work.

I also reject the idea that Bilderberg/Illuminati/FreeMason/LizardPeople conspiracies are part of the real world. They're generally as silly as anything in a Silver Age comic book.

I don't think a Watchmen-style uber gritty and downer tone is needed anyway. Ultimately it depends on the tone of each book. A good creative team can maintain the upbeat tone of a Spider-Man book even if they include real world corporate plays into it.

[jimishim12]

I'm sorry but to keep superhero comics from getting staid and/or infantile, they have to reflect the real world in either literal or metaphorical ways. Since the serial nature of comics is one permanent "you can't win, but you should try anyway" running gag anyway, might as well make the stories more interesting and dynamic.

I used to think this and now I don't because it's common in every comicbook and became normal standard to the point it's cliche. Superman is a sour puss brooder, Spider-Man is life suffering loser, Wonder Woman is a Kratos with boobs and a lasso etc. I want my light hearted romps into adventure and fun personified again with less ties to the real world. Spidey used to be a good balance between high flying excitments in the streets and in general with the most light hearted yet relateable hero marvel ever created, too a paranoid self sabotaging joke who even Batroc could beat up and is always fucking complaining about his life and telling outdated jokes.

[boots]

I used to think this and now I don't because it's common in every comicbook and became normal standard to the point it's cliche. Superman is a sour puss brooder, Spider-Man is life suffering loser, Wonder Woman is a Kratos with boobs and a lasso etc. I want my light hearted romps into adventure and fun personified again with less ties to the real world. Spidey used to be a good balance between high flying excitments in the streets and in general with the most light hearted yet relateable hero marvel ever created, too a paranoid self sabotaging joke who even Batroc could beat up and is always fucking complaining about his life and telling outdated jokes.

it's partly the execution, but also partly context. what separated marvel and spidey from the distinguished competition in the first place was doing exactly what confuzzled describes. executing that effectively has changed with the times, though not all readers have changed with it.

[Tuck]

it's partly the execution, but also partly context. what separated marvel and spidey from the distinguished competition in the first place was doing exactly what confuzzled describes. executing that effectively has changed with the times, though not all readers have changed with it.

Corporate villainy is a relic of the 80s though. That's a representation that should have changed with the times, especially post recession. (It's not that there's no place for it anymore, just not at the current level of ubiquity.) And the "'you can't win, but you should try anyway' running gag" is something that exists on a meta level. It's not a reality from the POV of characters in the books, unless an author chooses to make it so.

The world isn't secretly run some cabal. That is silly funny book stuff, not a reflection of the real world. Reality is accepting that the world if full of flawed people who often make bad decisions or do bad things out of self-interest.

[LASERlips]

Corporate villainy is a relic of the 80s though. That's a representation that should have changed with the times, especially post recession. (It's not that there's no place for it anymore, just not at the current level of ubiquity.) And the "'you can't win, but you should try anyway' running gag" is something that exists on a meta level. It's not a reality from the POV of characters in the books, unless an author chooses to make it so.

The world isn't secretly run some cabal. That is silly funny book stuff, not a reflection of the real world. Reality is accepting that the world if full of flawed people who often make bad decisions or do bad things out of self-interest.

I think corporate villainy is alive and in full swing. I'm young still, so I don't have a lot of personal history to compare to, but I feel that the kind of stuff we've seen in a work like, say, Robocop, isn't too far off from what could happen now. I'm not talking about robotic cops, naturally, but about the privatization of traditionally public services, or corporate influence on the government.

There's no denying, anyhow, that corporations have far too much power in politics these days with virtually all barriers and limits to campaign contributions removed.

In conclusion: Steve Rogers for President! President Captain America!

[Tuck]

What we have in the real world is ALEC, which is a far cry from Alchemax or Osrborn's HAMMER or Cabal.

[Webhead]

Waid's been confirmed huh? While I don't love his interpretation of Peter Parker, he's written some real gems and I'm intrigued to see what he'll do with Miles.

The Ultimate Universe is such a goner, though. Shame.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think corporate villainy is alive and in full swing. I'm young still, so I don't have a lot of personal history to compare to, but I feel that the kind of stuff we've seen in a work like, say, Robocop, isn't too far off from what could happen now. I'm not talking about robotic cops, naturally, but about the privatization of traditionally public services, or corporate influence on the government.

There's no denying, anyhow, that corporations have far too much power in politics these days with virtually all barriers and limits to campaign contributions removed.

In conclusion: Steve Rogers for President! President Captain America!

What we have in the real world is ALEC, which is a far cry from Alchemax or Osrborn's HAMMER or Cabal.

Yeah, but potentially worse. Corporations may not yet be directly overseeing and giving marching orders to the government, but ALEC is coming up with laws that the politicians it donates campaign funds to then go on to pass in local and state legislatures and even potentially in the national Congress. It's not as over-the-top as something like Alchemax or other cyberpunk representations of corporations being the real power behind governmental authorities, but it is something that does great and insidious damage to democracy and freedom and human rights, as it usurps ordinary citizens' voice and representation in the government. And yes, in this day and age where we're increasingly aware of the impact corporate corruption of our politics and government and other major institutions has had on our rights, our freedoms, our livelihoods, our basic quality of life, super-powered corporate villainy is something that comics can and perhaps should address.

[Tuck]

Yeah, but potentially worse. Corporations may not yet be directly overseeing and giving marching orders to the government, but ALEC is coming up with laws that the politicians it donates campaign funds to then go on to pass in local and state legislatures and even potentially in the national Congress.

Which any American citizen or organization can do.

It's not as over-the-top as something like Alchemax or other cyberpunk representations of corporations being the real power behind governmental authorities, but it is something that does great and insidious damage to democracy

This is how representative democracy works. I could call my county, state, or Congressional representative's office tomorrow and suggest legislation if I were inclined to. Of course, it would help if I could go to the rep with evidence that a significant number of people agree with my suggested legislation.

and freedom and human rights, as it usurps ordinary citizens' voice and representation in the government. And yes, in this day and age where we're increasingly aware of the impact corporate corruption of our politics and government and other major institutions has had on our rights, our freedoms, our livelihoods, our basic quality of life, super-powered corporate villainy is something that comics can and perhaps should address.

I mostly see greed and self-interest. You have actual corruption, yes. Tobacco companies suppressing medical evidence, Bernie Madoff, etc. But it's mostly just greed and self-interest. Nothing so fantastic as a global network dedicated to holding down the plebes. (This is not to say I'm happy about a lot of what is being put forth, but they are generally playing it by the book.)

[boots]

Corporate villainy is a relic of the 80s though. That's a representation that should have changed with the times, especially post recession. (It's not that there's no place for it anymore, just not at the current level of ubiquity.) And the "'you can't win, but you should try anyway' running gag" is something that exists on a meta level. It's not a reality from the POV of characters in the books, unless an author chooses to make it so.

The world isn't secretly run some cabal. That is silly funny book stuff, not a reflection of the real world. Reality is accepting that the world if full of flawed people who often make bad decisions or do bad things out of self-interest.

well, i was making a very general point about how much reality can bleed into a super hero narrative (which is always adjustable depending on the story or character), not addressing corporate villainy per se. but on that topic- while that particular theme might have had its height in the 80s- i reckon it’s still relevant to certain sections of today’s society (say, the occupy movements of recent years) and worth exploring.

with the whole iluminati thing- it should be the stuff of funny books only, but the sad reality is that there is a significant amount of the world’s population that believes in conspiracy theories. i was pretty shocked by comments amongst my own friend circle on social media who keep warning the “sheeple” to “wake up to the truth”. it is a real social fear for many, and i think there’s room for super heroes to address our social fears through fantasy.

[Steeler53]

well, i was making a very general point about how much reality can bleed into a super hero narrative (which is always adjustable depending on the story or character), not addressing corporate villainy per se. but on that topic- while that particular theme might have had its height in the 80s- i reckon it’s still relevant to certain sections of today’s society (say, the occupy movements of recent years) and worth exploring.

with the whole iluminati thing- it should be the stuff of funny books only, but the sad reality is that there is a significant amount of the world’s population that believes in conspiracy theories. i was pretty shocked by comments amongst my own friend circle on social media who keep warning the “sheeple” to “wake up to the truth”. it is a real social fear for many, and i think there’s room for super heroes to address our social fears through fantasy.

The reality is there are many people who believe in "Conspiracy Theories" so of course, there is plenty of money to made off of them, the movies "Independence Day' and 'Conspiracy Theory' come to mind ( care to guess why 'The X-Files' is coming back?). It works very well with comic books because of the concept that if people like Peter Parker and Steve Rogers with their super powers cannot handle the illuminati, how can average people? You hear stuff like the "Free Masons", "New World Order" "UN World Government" "JFK Assassination" all the time and guess what??As long as they do, expect it in comic books as well as other forms of Entertainment.

[boots]

The reality is there are many people who believe in "Conspiracy Theories" so of course, there is plenty of money to made off of them, the movies "Independence Day' and 'Conspiracy Theory' come to mind ( care to guess why 'The X-Files' is coming back?). It works very well with comic books because of the concept that if people like Peter Parker and Steve Rogers with their super powers cannot handle the illuminati, how can average people? You hear stuff like the "Free Masons", "New World Order" "UN World Government" "JFK Assassination" all the time and guess what??As long as they do, expect it in comic books as well as other forms of Entertainment.

well that’s part of what superheroes were created for in the first place- to deal with (and soothe) public fears of perceived modern threats. superman was created to deal with a post industrial, post war world and was given a body impervious to all those modern threats to every day people (faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings etc). many super heroes are a positive effect/result of some of those fears (radiation makes us sick in real life but in comics, it makes us super). it makes sense to me that they continue to address those social bogeymen today (even though the theme has subverted at times to play with the idea of the superhero as the real threat).

[Tuck]

with the whole iluminati thing- it should be the stuff of funny books only, but the sad reality is that there is a significant amount of the world’s population that believes in conspiracy theories. i was pretty shocked by comments amongst my own friend circle on social media who keep warning the “sheeple” to “wake up to the truth”. it is a real social fear for many, and i think there’s room for super heroes to address our social fears through fantasy.

Sure. I even enjoy a conspiracy story once in a while. But I prefer them in a closed system. I realize they never really went anywhere with the idea, but theoretically it overwrites/nixes a lot of possibilities for future stories because everything is ultimately tied in some way to this idea of People Who Really Run the World sabotaging potential rebellions before they can even be conceived. The World Wars, Cold War, every conflict, too much stuff gets thrown into the box with it. Works best as a single story in its own universe.

[boots]

Sure. I even enjoy a conspiracy story once in a while. But I prefer them in a closed system. I realize they never really went anywhere with the idea, but theoretically it overwrites/nixes a lot of possibilities for future stories because everything is ultimately tied in some way to this idea of People Who Really Run the World sabotaging potential rebellions before they can even be conceived. The World Wars, Cold War, every conflict, too much stuff gets thrown into the box with it. Works best as a single story in its own universe.

yeah, but how consistent has super hero universe logic ever been? really, genosha, latveria, atlantis etc should significantly alter the political landscape more than they do. the avengers should have gotten involved in stopping sentinels a looong time ago. it works for now because of the same way everything in the marvel universe works- it’s totally non-cohesive as a make-believe-universe unless you take more than a sideways glance at it.

personally though, i agree with your point. my solution wouldn’t be to relegate it to a single story or its own reality- just make it something more ambiguous. as a possibility, rather than a fact. it could be a suggestion, a bogey man, the same way it is in real life.

and even if people are established as believing they “run the world”- throw in opposing view points and forces. are they deluded? are their strings being pulled? do they have competition? are they even effective? i truly believe it’s not the concept, it’s the execution.

(keep in mind though, i’m not sure of the specifics of how it has been handled so far in the marv u).

[Confuzzled]

"Corporate ethics" works perfectly as a theme for Spider-Man as it the next level for "With great power..." We've seen Peter Parker juggle power and responsibility on an individual and at times, family level, so now after 53 years of his creation, it makes sense that he take that balance onto the community level with ethical and socially aware corporate business. "Corporate villainy" is relevant as it is the other side of the same coin.