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  1. #1
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Default "All-New, All-Different" Marvel Comics or "All-Derivative, All-Rehashed" Marvel Comics?

    Full disclosure:

    This comes from someone that went from cautiously optimistic with Marvel's future after Secret Wars to completely jaded with the first glimpse of the future after seeing the cover for the "All-New, All-Different Avengers" Free Comic Book Day book. I was planning to buy the whole saga and tie-ins, I was hoping to feel like the little kid that loved every issue of Secret Wars back then, but I came to the realization after the cover reveal that maybe Marvel Comics aren't for me anymore. Why I say that? Is it because I'm against change, diversity and I can't "share my toys" like my favorite writer would say? I don't think so, let me try to explain my point of view.

    This is the cover of All-New, All-Different Avengers:



    This is the cover of All-New, All-Different X-Men:



    This is the cover of The Runaways HC First Series:



    And this is the cover of Next Wave #01:

    http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/...f29/detail.jpg

    Am I alone or all the three old covers seem a lot more exciting than the one we are getting for All-New, All-Different Avengers? Maybe it's just me, but what is truly exciting in those comic covers - especially for me that was a big fan of all of them - it's that they were inventive, fun and original. They had a heart of their own and gave a fresh point of view for the Marvel Universe. New interesting corners, brand new characters that aren't really based on anything that came before, new concepts and such.

    What is so wrong about the "All-New, All-Different Avengers" is that how much borderline cynically derivative it seems to me, from the X-Men tagline to the versions of Spider-Man, Nova, Ms. Marvel, Captain America, Iron Man and Thor. And I'm actual a FAN of Aaron's Thor and Willow's Ms. Marvel. Isolated, I think they are cool derivative concepts (in the case of Thor) and truly great different spins (Ms. Marvel), but am I the only one that is getting kind of tired of that? Yes, Marvel is pushing for diversity, yay. Maybe I have only myself to blame, but when I thought about Marvel after Secret Wars, I imagined the return of the House of the Ideas, I imagined Marvel going bold with new and original concepts, not only bringing back the Runaways, but searching for new concepts and ideas to populate a new and vibrant Marvel Universe.

    What I'm saying is that whatever Marvel is doing to push diversity, I don't think it's the right way to go. The first time that the "All New, All Different" tagline was used, Marvel meant it: Nightcrawler, Colossus, Storm and Thunderbird were all brand new characters, Wolverine was virtually a Marvel novice back then. What I'm saying is that if this "All-New, All-Different Avengers", and "Welcome to the Inhumans - Hope you survive the experience" is what Marvel think as bold and fresh moving forward, maybe my expiration date is coming with the end of the 616 universe, maybe my readership will be yet another casualty of "the end of everything".

    I just sincerely hoped for better. I was legitimately stoked for Marvel's future, but I wish Marvel would have more respect with their fans and their own characters. I'm in favor of diversity and I think that Marvel should push new and innovative books like Runaways and Next Wave, it's too bad that they think that in order to create this new and diverse Marvel Universe, they think it's worth to cannibalize their own characters and readership.

    I'm just a jaded Marvel fanboy that read these comics for far too long anyway. I guess I'm maybe just finally growing out of Marvel Comics. I mean, if not even Mark Waid's writing can bring me to care about this, then I know this is probably not for me anyway. I just think that if Millar and Vaughan can create new concepts from each comic series they make, why is it so hard for Marvel just create something new, you know? Oh well, at least "Renew Your Vows" seems like a good jumping off point, written by my all time favorite Spider-Man writer.

    Welcome, "all-new all-different" Marvel Comics. I genuinely "hope you survive the experience",
    Last edited by ijacksparrow; 03-26-2015 at 10:00 PM.

  2. #2

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    I said it before, but we kinda entered the age where everything is lip service to the past. It's like how the same sort of ideas keep happening in Spider-Man and X-Men with Apocalypse coming back or remaking the scene from Gwen Stacy's death. This is why I was also against the whole Female Thor thing because they're just trying to extend a franchise that's becoming exhausted. As much as Marvel says "Look at how diverse we are now", they are just trying to keep Captain America, Iron Man, Thor and other franchises that have the same villains and same scenarios over and over. People are gonna get sick of all of this same stuff.

    I mean, look at Marvel Cosmic before and after Marvel NOW. Before, Marvel cosmic was giant with space empires and political matters and a huge and inventive team. Now? We got 7 books all taking riffs off the movies as Drax is a moron, Rocket is an *******, Starlord is a brain dead idiot, and the team gets arrested and put in jail over and over for constant breakouts. Oh, now Starlord carries a walkman around and constantly chants OOGA CHACKA! They aren't evolving the GOTG line at all because they are waiting for the next movie to dictate what the comics should do. Why not bring back any of the past GOTG members or explore new ideas? NOPE! Instead they blow up the Kree homeworld. Cause lord knows that DC and Marvel just can't stop blowing up planets even though they want to make outer space bigger. So that leaves the total of EARTH in all of Marvel Cosmic now!

    Marvel putting their eggs in all the same franchises is gonna backfire. People will get bored with the constant "Oh no! Hydra is infiltrating" or "Thanos is the big villain" month in and month out. Some new property is gonna swoop in, and it will be the death blow to comics. It probably will be the anime film boom that Hollywood is starting with the Ghost in the Shell film.

    I agree with you. I'm tired of the endless memes Marvel is stuck in and really wish someone would be creative and not just go "Movie 6 Avengers and Movie 5 Guardians" and their spin off heroes. Just so annoying

  3. #3
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    Okay. I hope you find another comic book to enjoy.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Exactly. And you know, every once in a while comes a Dan Slott's Spider-Man and Silver Surfer, a Matt Fraction's Hawkeye, a Jonathan Hickman's Avengers, Waid's Daredevil and I get the sense Marvel should keep these guys doing what they do great, which is create new stories with classical characters. I don't think Marvel understands something that actually DC gets with Batman, at least: you don't mess with your main characters because when there are several versions of Spider-Men, Thors and Captain Americas, you are hurting your brand. It's crazy, but seeing the treatment that Marvel is giving to my favorite characters are making me consider to chase all Snyder's Batman comics instead of wasting money with Marvel's brand new spins on these characters.

    Slott's Spidey is great because the writer is great and actually cares about writing great Spider-Man stories, and it seems that the same goes for Snyder's Batman. I know that things don't look good on the other side with all this Convergence non sense either, but if Marvel is going to keep pushing me versions of their characters from here to infinity, I think I'd rather read something else more focused on quality than gimmicks.

  5. #5
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyberhubbs View Post
    Okay. I hope you find another comic book to enjoy.
    I haven't bought a DC title in almost two decades. Marvel's new initiative might be the final push I needed for that, Snyder's Batman looks great.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    I haven't bought a DC title in almost two decades. Marvel's new initiative might be the final push I needed for that, Snyder's Batman looks great.
    I've heard good and bad things. Plan to check it out at some point in the near future. Anyway, let us know how it is.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    Exactly. And you know, every once in a while comes a Dan Slott's Spider-Man and Silver Surfer, a Matt Fraction's Hawkeye, a Jonathan Hickman's Avengers, Waid's Daredevil and I get the sense Marvel should keep these guys doing what they do great, which is create new stories with classical characters. I don't think Marvel understands something that actually DC gets with Batman, at least: you don't mess with your main characters because when there are several versions of Spider-Men, Thors and Captain Americas, you are hurting your brand. It's crazy, but seeing the treatment that Marvel is giving to my favorite characters are making me consider to chase all Snyder's Batman comics instead of wasting money with Marvel's brand new spins on these characters.

    Slott's Spidey is great because the writer is great and actually cares about writing great Spider-Man stories, and it seems that the same goes for Snyder's Batman. I know that things don't look good on the other side with all this Convergence non sense either, but if Marvel is going to keep pushing me versions of their characters from here to infinity, I think I'd rather read something else more focused on quality than gimmicks.
    Snyders Batman is great.

    Too bad you don't much Marvel stuff again. It happens I guess.

  8. #8
    Mighty Member ijacksparrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Snyders Batman is great.

    Too bad you don't much Marvel stuff again. It happens I guess.
    Slott is my favorite Spider-Man writer and quite possibly my favorite Marvel writer right now, next to Hickman and Waid. Marvel should pay Warren Ellis and other creative writers good money for them to create actual new and non derivative concepts for them, there's room for growth in the MCU, especially since they are taking the mutants away. I just wish Marvel made an effort to create more original content instead of derivative content.

    You don't see DC giving the Superman's, Wonder Woman's or Batman's identity to every other character every other year. You don't see DC creating new content either, but that's why I feel Marvel need actual talent to give them new sandboxes, instead of making every character an Avengers filled with Thors, Spider-Men and Caps.

  9. #9
    Fantastic Member Cinnamon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    I haven't bought a DC title in almost two decades. Marvel's new initiative might be the final push I needed for that, Snyder's Batman looks great.
    Or maybe you could take a look at other publishers, like Image.

  10. #10
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    At least this is a somewhat different argument than the standard one being hashed out in multiple threads. If I'm understanding you right you want an Avengers team with truly original characters. Is that right? See you also say you want writers to write new stories with classical characters. So in a way it also sounds like you want new stories and ideas that involve the characters that already exist only in their original form. It's somewhat hard to get what you are actually asking for.

  11. #11
    Fantastic 4ever Kirby Krackle's Avatar
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    Valiant is publishing some really good material. You might dig it.
    Marvel Pull - Fantastic Four, The Immortal Hulk
    DC Pull - The Green Lantern, Goddess Mode
    Indie Pull - The Wrong Earth, High Heaven

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    Slott is my favorite Spider-Man writer and quite possibly my favorite Marvel writer right now, next to Hickman and Waid. Marvel should pay Warren Ellis and other creative writers good money for them to create actual new and non derivative concepts for them, there's room for growth in the MCU, especially since they are taking the mutants away. I just wish Marvel made an effort to create more original content instead of derivative content.

    You don't see DC giving the Superman's, Wonder Woman's or Batman's identity to every other character every other year. You don't see DC creating new content either, but that's why I feel Marvel need actual talent to give them new sandboxes, instead of making every character an Avengers filled with Thors, Spider-Men and Caps.
    Fair enough.

    Sometimes we just have to let of the things we love.

    If you dig superheroes, try Valiant they have a pretty good line up of superhero titles.

  13. #13
    Marvel's 1st Superhero Reviresco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    Full disclosure:

    This comes from someone that went from cautiously optimistic with Marvel's future after Secret Wars to completely jaded with the first glimpse of the future after seeing the cover for the "All-New, All-Different Avengers" Free Comic Book Day book. I was planning to buy the whole saga and tie-ins, I was hoping to feel like the little kid that loved every issue of Secret Wars back then, but I came to the realization after the cover reveal that maybe Marvel Comics aren't for me anymore. Why I say that? Is it because I'm against change, diversity and I can't "share my toys" like my favorite writer would say? I don't think so, let me try to explain my point of view.

    This is the cover of All-New, All-Different Avengers:



    This is the cover of All-New, All-Different X-Men:



    This is the cover of The Runaways HC First Series:



    And this is the cover of Next Wave #01:

    http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel/i/...f29/detail.jpg

    Am I alone or all the three old covers seem a lot more exciting than the one we are getting for All-New, All-Different Avengers? Maybe it's just me, but what is truly exciting in those comic covers - especially for me that was a big fan of all of them - it's that they were inventive, fun and original. They had a heart of their own and gave a fresh point of view for the Marvel Universe. New interesting corners, brand new characters that aren't really based on anything that came before, new concepts and such.
    You got all that from the covers??? Ironically, those "exciting" covers are derivative and rehashes themselves. GSXM --The idea of superheroes bursting out of the page has been done on plenty of covers and pages. The Runaways -- Kevin Maguire's classic Justice League cover. And Nextwave -- half the cover is Hokusai's famous woodcut, The Wave!

    While, I agree that I think ANAD Avengers to be anything but that, I find most of your post to be contradictory and confusing. I'm not even going to touch the 'doing diversity wrong' point. But I agree, you probably would be happier to give up Marvel comics and try some other company.

    To be honest, I think between Convergence and Secret Wars, and their aftermaths, Image and Valiant and the rest of the independents will probably be gaining more readers.
    Namor the Sub-Mariner, Marvel's oldest character, will have been published for 85 years in 2024. So where's my GOOD Namor anniversary ongoing, Marvel?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    Am I alone or all the three old covers seem a lot more exciting than the one we are getting for All-New, All-Different Avengers?
    X-Men hadn't had a new issue generated for it in 6 years by the time Giant-Size X-Men came out, and when it was published it's sales were poor. So Marvel had a chance to redefine what the X-Men were. Runaways and Nextwave were new comics and so had the opportunity to define what they were.

    If Marvel had produced an All-New, All-Different Avengers book that didn't resemble any Avengers book that came before it, people would complain they weren't Avengers and that they were just sticking the Avengers name onto a brand new team that should have a unique name.

    Marvel's in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If the Avengers were a team that hadn't been published in 6 years and when it did it was an unsucessful title, then sure, Marvel could completely redefine what the Avengers were. It would be like Exiles. This is a book that had a dedicated following but ultimately hasn't been able to sustain itself since the initial author left. Marvel could take the base concept (heroes from different universes travelling across the multiverse to be super-heroes) and find a new way to spin that concept and try to spin it a new way. The fanbase that exists is fairly small these days for the book so the number of readers that will be potentially pushed away by the changes won't be significant from a sales perspective. Avengers, however, is a successful franchise that doesn't need to be redefined in such a drastic way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    I'm actual a FAN of Aaron's Thor and Willow's Ms. Marvel. Isolated, I think they are cool derivative concepts (in the case of Thor) and truly great different spins (Ms. Marvel), but am I the only one that is getting kind of tired of that? Yes, Marvel is pushing for diversity, yay. Maybe I have only myself to blame, but when I thought about Marvel after Secret Wars, I imagined the return of the House of the Ideas, I imagined Marvel going bold with new and original concepts, not only bringing back the Runaways, but searching for new concepts and ideas to populate a new and vibrant Marvel Universe.
    This was never going to happen. Also bringing back Runaways wouldn't be All-New, All-Different. Runaways already exist and so they're old. If you want All-New, All-Different Runaways isn't valid. It's just some tired old series from the early 2000s that hasn't been able to sustain an ongoing in over 6 years. Let it go. It's time to move on to something that's All-New, All-Different

    (Hey. Runaways is getting a new volume in Secret Wars. That's cool. I really liked Runaways and would love to read those characters again in new adventures. However there's nothing All-New, All-Different about that. At least I hope not. I'd hate to see all of the old Runaways characters killed off just to make way for a new bunch of teenagers).

    Quote Originally Posted by Zauri View Post
    What I'm saying is that if this "All-New, All-Different Avengers", and "Welcome to the Inhumans - Hope you survive the experience" is what Marvel think as bold and fresh moving forward, maybe my expiration date is coming with the end of the 616 universe, maybe my readership will be yet another casualty of "the end of everything".
    That makes no sense. You admit you've been enjoying Ms. Marvel and Thor volume 4. Why would you stop reading those simply because Marvel isn't producing OTHER titles that you deem to be original enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby Krackle View Post
    Valiant is publishing some really good material. You might dig it.
    I'd hardly call rebooting your comics franchise from the 90s to be All New, All Different. Then again neither are new adventures based on a character originally created in 1939.
    Currently Reading
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  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaosfist View Post
    At least this is a somewhat different argument than the standard one being hashed out in multiple threads. If I'm understanding you right you want an Avengers team with truly original characters. Is that right? See you also say you want writers to write new stories with classical characters. So in a way it also sounds like you want new stories and ideas that involve the characters that already exist only in their original form. It's somewhat hard to get what you are actually asking for.
    I think his point is that he wants... new stuff. If Marvel introduces new character then it should be a new character and not a derivative of, for example, Thor. If Marvel publishes Avengers book with classical character then let them actually face new threats and new challenges instead of Thanos or Doom once again. Maybe Captain America can finally fight something new? How many times has he faced Hydra and Red Skull or some sort of variation of them?

    Now, its certainly not a problem unique to Marvel, DC also keeps getting back to same Batman vs Joker, Superman vs Lex Luthor plots again and again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    I mean, look at Marvel Cosmic before and after Marvel NOW. Before, Marvel cosmic was giant with space empires and political matters and a huge and inventive team. Now? We got 7 books all taking riffs off the movies as Drax is a moron, Rocket is an *******, Starlord is a brain dead idiot, and the team gets arrested and put in jail over and over for constant breakouts. Oh, now Starlord carries a walkman around and constantly chants OOGA CHACKA! They aren't evolving the GOTG line at all because they are waiting for the next movie to dictate what the comics should do. Why not bring back any of the past GOTG members or explore new ideas? NOPE! Instead they blow up the Kree homeworld. Cause lord knows that DC and Marvel just can't stop blowing up planets even though they want to make outer space bigger. So that leaves the total of EARTH in all of Marvel Cosmic now!
    I think its kinda ironic how comics were source material for these movies, but with time they are becoming adaptations of movies instead. Adaptation of an adaptation...

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