"All-New, All-Different" Marvel Comics or "All-Derivative, All-Rehashed" Marvel Comics?

[Dog]

More like "House of NO Ideas"!

AMIRITE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[hawkeyefan]

And even then, there are a lot of non-big 2 superhero books. People just don't wanna step out of that comfort zone.

True. But they would probably be better off. I wish I had ventured outside the superhero sandbox sooner. It would have helped me stop buying crap books out of habit much sooner than I did.

Word up. Seriously, people. Image is doing a lot of awesome stuff. Valiant is trying really damn hard to make new comics palatable. Go read this stuff.

You don't even have to try non-superhero books if superheroes are you bread and butter. There's Invincible and all the Valiant stuff! Seriously! Go. Explore.

Very true.

I think a case study that showcases fan devotion to intellectual properties would be interesting. I also think it would be healthy for readers if they simply stopped reading books a company is publishing. Loyalty and/or devotion to a character is overrated. What gets lost in all the back and forth about creative direction behind an intellectual property is the fact that the consumers do not have to continue buying the books. Besides, a stronger statement of protest is actually not spending money on the product/property. It's a rather cynical approach to the industry, but the most sane one, I feel.

Yup. Stop buying out of habit. So many people seem willing to buy a book they hate because they like the character or something. It's kind of bonkers.

Trouble is exploring at 2.99 is hard.

It doesn't have to be. Try something out in trade, or go to the dollar bins you always mention. Take advantage of sales on comixology and similar sites.

Or simply take the $3 or $4 that you were going to spend on the latest issue of a book you hate, and spend it in something else entirely.

It's $3 or $4....if that makes or breaks you, you shouldn't be spending it on any comic, let alone one you can't stand.

[nnelg]

I have tried Image, I did not like most of them. Valiant produces some good books. I do not see most people complaining about everything Marvel or Dc publish, just the few things that they dislike. Like everybody else.

[Mark]

It doesn't have to be. Try something out in trade, or go to the dollar bins you always mention. Take advantage of sales on comixology and similar sites.

Or simply take the $3 or $4 that you were going to spend on the latest issue of a book you hate, and spend it in something else entirely.

It's $3 or $4....if that makes or breaks you, you shouldn't be spending it on any comic, let alone one you can't stand.

Doesn't break me, but my limit is severe right now and the problem with the dollar bins is that they are a year or two old. Great for getting the tossed off wretches that no one wanted anyway (events and tie-ins). Also I really have to read something before I decided if I like it or not, the omniscience with which you can know if you are going to like something without buying it and reading it escapes me.

With events especially knowing what to buy and what not to buy is hard and with new books you can be torn. It takes time for a book to take off and for the creators to get comfortable with the characters and the question is do you support them and hope that they'll work it out or not? If you do and mention that you don't like it then you get hit with the 'if you don't like it, don't buy it' mantra that is so favored in many threads, if you don't then you get hit with the 'Well why would they bring out new books and concepts if no one is going to support them?' mantra which is also favored in many threads.

It was far easier to hang in there or give a new title a chance when it was a dollar or a dollar fifty, but now that titles start at 2.99 and routinely get mixed up in events that derail storylines and often render past characterizations obsolete if not contradictory it is far harder. This could be a good book, it could be a bad one. Say the first story arc goes for six to twelve titles. At 2.99 that's 17.94 or 35.88 and if they link the title to a mini or tie it into a mega event that's another three or four titles to get the whole story and that's another twelve to fifteen dollars.
Basically marvel has pretty much priced me out of taking chances on their stuff unless the concept is just really, really interesting. Right now this concept isn't that. At least not enough that I'm going to skip an issue of Tarot or Knights of the Dinner Table for it.
If they really wanted to give this title a good push for a start they could drop the price on the first three issues to 1.50.

[Mr MajestiK]

More like "House of NO Ideas"!

AMIRITE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Totally right.

[Arfguy]

I do not think that it is entirely the creative teems fault. I think that Marvel have had no long term plans for the X-men aside from turning Cyclops into a popular character. They should always have 2-3 years worth of story planned. It seems like they do not have a plan at all, except for All New X-men.

I was so psyched about All New X-Men. First of all, Stuart Immonen going to be drawing the book. Despite having my enthusiasm for New Avengers tail off after about 20+ issues, I was pretty eager to see what Bendis could do with the book. Then the idea was to pull forward the young O5 X-Men and in all honesy, other than Cyclops, I have very little interest in reading those old characters. Then they decided to keep them and it just got annoying.

Maybe Marvel doesn't have any long term plans for the X-Men, but I'd rather be reading an X-Men book with no plans whatsoever than the meandering mess that was All-New X-Men. It was just boring.

I have tried Image, I did not like most of them. Valiant produces some good books. I do not see most people complaining about everything Marvel or Dc publish, just the few things that they dislike. Like everybody else.

If you don't mind me asking, which Image books did you try and what type of books were you looking for and/or expecting?

[skyvolt2000]

Trouble is exploring at 2.99 is hard.

Some of those Image & IDW trades are 10 bucks with the first 5 issues.

Loyalty and/or devotion to a character is overrated. What gets lost in all the back and forth about creative direction behind an intellectual property is the fact that the consumers do not have to continue buying the books.

As long as FEAR of limbo or getting killed off in a big event is around-you will have sheep buying a book based on a name. Even ones they don't like except those that feature Miles, Ms Marvel, Falcon & Nova.

An issue with a case study is how do you do it.

You can not rely on comic book stores-you will miss a TON of folks. Same with comic cons. Same with online surveys. And no company will do one because they might not like the results.

And that's not just true for women or minorities but properties in general that aren't seen as connected to a popular brand.

Well as long there are factors that a fan can't control it's hard for a property to work.

I can't make a store stock a book (not an issue with the indies but an issue with Marvel & DC) or reorder it. See Grifter

I can't help it if the folks in charge don't like a character. See Cassandra Cain.

I can't help it if one failure is used to justify not ever using a character again. See Static.

I can't help it if the guys in charge are willing to ruin others to prop up one. See Green Lantern franchise.

There are too many x factors. That's why I say change the format-I can live with a $10 Eli Bradley graphic Novel once a year (or two). Not every one needs a solo/team series.

[Dog]

Totally right.

sarcasmdetectorsimpsons-300x227.jpg

Must be on the fritz.

[HaveAtThee]

As long as FEAR of limbo or getting killed off in a big event is around-you will have sheep buying a book based on a name. Even ones they don't like except those that feature Miles, Ms Marvel, Falcon & Nova.

An issue with a case study is how do you do it.

You can not rely on comic book stores-you will miss a TON of folks. Same with comic cons. Same with online surveys. And no company will do one because they might not like the results.

Good points. I bet for sure that Marvel and DC have marketing research folks who perform such tasks. Your take is interesting pertaining to the openness (or lack thereof) of the comic industry in general. It would surely be a herculean task to get an independent research team to gain access to net sales figures and buyer trends. It's definitely obvious though that the companies are aware of the general reaction to their bigger titles and relish capitalizing on that reaction (i.e. Thor Vol. 6 #5). But I think that evaluating trends with sample sizes from comic book outlets, conventions and even online subscription outlets could definitely give you a fairly accurate analysis of the comic industry consumer habits and trends.

[nnelg]

I was so psyched about All New X-Men. First of all, Stuart Immonen going to be drawing the book. Despite having my enthusiasm for New Avengers tail off after about 20+ issues, I was pretty eager to see what Bendis could do with the book. Then the idea was to pull forward the young O5 X-Men and in all honesy, other than Cyclops, I have very little interest in reading those old characters. Then they decided to keep them and it just got annoying.

Maybe Marvel doesn't have any long term plans for the X-Men, but I'd rather be reading an X-Men book with no plans whatsoever than the meandering mess that was All-New X-Men. It was just boring.

I like it. It is not the best story but it is good.

If you don't mind me asking, which Image books did you try and what type of books were you looking for and/or expecting?

I was reading saga but it got bad. I've tried JMS's book, Thief of Thieves, Nameless, Black Science, Deadly Class and The Walking Dead but I didn't like any of them. There are more that I didn't like but I don't remember the names. I like Velvet but I missed a few so I plan to get it in trade. I am trying Birthright and Busiek's new book but I am not sure if I will continue to buy them. I'm also thinking about trying the Mantle. Oh yeah I used to read Invincible but it got bad also. The comic books that I prefer are the superhero comics. I actually like most of the things that Marvel and Dc publish.(that I read) Yes some things could be better like Wolverine being alive but what can we do about it. I just don't see how people keep raving about the greatness of Image and indies comics while saying everything that Marvel and Dc puts out is garbage.

[Arfguy]

I was reading saga but it got bad. I've tried JMS's book, Thief of Thieves, Nameless, Black Science, Deadly Class and The Walking Dead but I didn't like any of them. There are more that I didn't like but I don't remember the names. I like Velvet but I missed a few so I plan to get it in trade. I am trying Birthright and Busiek's new book but I am not sure if I will continue to buy them. I'm also thinking about trying the Mantle. Oh yeah I used to read Invincible but it got bad also. The comic books that I prefer are the superhero comics. I actually like most of the things that Marvel and Dc publish.(that I read) Yes some things could be better like Wolverine being alive but what can we do about it. I just don't see how people keep raving about the greatness of Image and indies comics while saying everything that Marvel and Dc puts out is garbage.

Well, I don't think anyone can say you didn't try different things.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying Marvel and DC puts out only crap. I'm just not very fond of this whole trying to promote diversity by using the brand of pre-existing characters. I think Marvel has a lot of characters that can promote diversity that deserve the spotlight.

[hawkeyefan]

Doesn't break me, but my limit is severe right now and the problem with the dollar bins is that they are a year or two old. Great for getting the tossed off wretches that no one wanted anyway (events and tie-ins). Also I really have to read something before I decided if I like it or not, the omniscience with which you can know if you are going to like something without buying it and reading it escapes me.

With events especially knowing what to buy and what not to buy is hard and with new books you can be torn. It takes time for a book to take off and for the creators to get comfortable with the characters and the question is do you support them and hope that they'll work it out or not? If you do and mention that you don't like it then you get hit with the 'if you don't like it, don't buy it' mantra that is so favored in many threads, if you don't then you get hit with the 'Well why would they bring out new books and concepts if no one is going to support them?' mantra which is also favored in many threads.

It was far easier to hang in there or give a new title a chance when it was a dollar or a dollar fifty, but now that titles start at 2.99 and routinely get mixed up in events that derail storylines and often render past characterizations obsolete if not contradictory it is far harder. This could be a good book, it could be a bad one. Say the first story arc goes for six to twelve titles. At 2.99 that's 17.94 or 35.88 and if they link the title to a mini or tie it into a mega event that's another three or four titles to get the whole story and that's another twelve to fifteen dollars.
Basically marvel has pretty much priced me out of taking chances on their stuff unless the concept is just really, really interesting. Right now this concept isn't that. At least not enough that I'm going to skip an issue of Tarot or Knights of the Dinner Table for it.
If they really wanted to give this title a good push for a start they could drop the price on the first three issues to 1.50.

Well the first issue featuring the new team is free, so there's that.

I have no way to know for sure if I'll like a book or not. But there is plenty of advance info about books, I know which creators and topics I like, and so on. From time to time I think it's better to take a chance on something new rather than just continue with something that is familiar, but which isn't really interesting anymore.

I think that one issue is usually enough to know if something will be appealing to you. So if you have a set budget for comics in a given month, my recommendation would be to stop buying the title you enjoy the least and pick up something new each month until you find something worth sticking with.

I was reading saga but it got bad. I've tried JMS's book, Thief of Thieves, Nameless, Black Science, Deadly Class and The Walking Dead but I didn't like any of them. There are more that I didn't like but I don't remember the names. I like Velvet but I missed a few so I plan to get it in trade. I am trying Birthright and Busiek's new book but I am not sure if I will continue to buy them. I'm also thinking about trying the Mantle. Oh yeah I used to read Invincible but it got bad also. The comic books that I prefer are the superhero comics. I actually like most of the things that Marvel and Dc publish.(that I read) Yes some things could be better like Wolverine being alive but what can we do about it. I just don't see how people keep raving about the greatness of Image and indies comics while saying everything that Marvel and Dc puts out is garbage.

I don't think that everything any company puts out is all great or all garbage. Each company has its fair share of strong books and its fair share of weak ones.

The reason that in this thread I think it's relevant to bring up other publishers and other genres is because the OP expressed dissatisfaction with the new Avengers lineup. And his alternatives to this seem to consist of reading DC instead, or wishing that the Avengers book was comprised of a different set of characters who are equally derivative.

If someone was saying that they were sick of what Image and Valiant had to offer, I'd probably bring up Marvel or DC to them.

[Gordonstar]

I was reading saga but it got bad. I've tried JMS's book, Thief of Thieves, Nameless, Black Science, Deadly Class and The Walking Dead but I didn't like any of them. There are more that I didn't like but I don't remember the names. I like Velvet but I missed a few so I plan to get it in trade. I am trying Birthright and Busiek's new book but I am not sure if I will continue to buy them. I'm also thinking about trying the Mantle. Oh yeah I used to read Invincible but it got bad also. The comic books that I prefer are the superhero comics. I actually like most of the things that Marvel and Dc publish.(that I read) Yes some things could be better like Wolverine being alive but what can we do about it. I just don't see how people keep raving about the greatness of Image and indies comics while saying everything that Marvel and Dc puts out is garbage.

I have no interest in Image unless it's by Warren Ellis or Hickman. I think most of Image is over rated.

[nnelg]

I agree but they would not sell. If Miles Moralis was named something besides Spiderman or Sam was using the name Falcon it would do horrible. The same goes for the female Thor and everybody knows it. The only one that I think is selling on her own is Ms. Marvel. But I do not have a problem with the legacy characters besides the female Thor. The Teen Titans were legacy characters hell most comic book characters were. Wolverine was a Hulk character. Punisher was from Spiderman. The list could g on and on.


This post is directed at Arfguy

[Arfguy]

I agree but they would not sell. If Miles Moralis was named something besides Spiderman or Sam was using the name Falcon it would do horrible. The same goes for the female Thor and everybody knows it. The only one that I think is selling on her own is Ms. Marvel. But I do not have a problem with the legacy characters besides the female Thor. The Teen Titans were legacy characters hell most comic book characters were. Wolverine was a Hulk character. Punisher was from Spiderman. The list could g on and on.

This post is directed at Arfguy

What I'm saying is, it is possible to promote characters as their own, without needing to borrow brands. What was being said before by the OP is, Batman will always be Bruce Wayne. Sure, they tried to lend out the Batman identity to the likes of Dick Grayson, Jean-Paul Valley and who knows who else, but it's always returned to Bruce Wayne. He's the Batman. Everything else was a fad.

I'm glad that the new female Thor is enjoying success. I would like to see Falcon is finding more success, but as their own character. What is being done now, it's just a band-aid. If they want characters to really prosper, they need to put in some major marketing behind those ideas. Guardians of the Galaxy are not a BIG comic book property, but one movie made Marvel publishing try and put out as much GotG content as possible.

I'm not saying that Marvel should try and get movies of all these characters that are diverse (except Blade. Blade needs more movies, DAMMIT!), but I think making them their own thing is better. I'd be really rolling my eyes if the GotG movie came out and Marvel started selling a title featuring all those characters and calling it "Space Avengers"!

Lame!