"All-New, All-Different" Marvel Comics or "All-Derivative, All-Rehashed" Marvel Comics?

[Ceebiro]

Is this thread literally about judging a book by its cover?

[Ceebiro]

The superhero titles may be the same, but the actual CHARACTERS themselves are not. Miles is not Peter. Sam is not Steve. New Thor is not Odinson. Kamala is not Carol. We don't even know who is in the Iron Man suit. These are new characters to the Avengers. Same superhero name, but different characters. These characters are more than just their powers.

Close thread?

Close thread.

[Ceebiro]

My point is that they are doing it wrong. They are scaring away old readers hoping that they'll get new readers, instead of doing their best to keep their old readers that are open minded when it comes to change - I wouldn't mind if they reboot the whole thing as long as they creative new and cool content for the old characters and exciting and vibrant new stories from new characters, creating the NEW Marvel Universe, not the 10th version of Spider-Man, Captain America or whatever. I'm saying that Marvel making all their main characters legacy characters is a bad move, because if these characters are so replaceable, what is their worth? I miss Runaways and Next Wave because they are literally the most original stuff Marvel came up in the last 15 years, and why on Earth is so hard for them to push for new concepts instead of rehashing the old ones is beyond me.

Now this is a more interesting discussion. The problem is that Marvel HAS tried new stuff, it just doesn't stick. Maybe they didn't try their hardest, but it's not like they haven't tried. A.I., Academy and Arena all tried to expand the brand in a direction that was completely different from "core" Avengers books. They were not received well enough to stick. Heck you mention Nextwave and that also was not received well commercially either. The readership couldn't pay the cost to keep the creators, and it's not like Immonen and Ellis were small time creators. They were just as talented then as they are now.

Which raises the question - could a truly All New All Different Avengers team work in the long term in the current market? I'm not quite sure. I'd love to see Marvel try but the readership has been built to have certain expectations of how certain properties should look and behave.

[Username taken]

The superhero titles may be the same, but the actual CHARACTERS themselves are not. Miles is not Peter. Sam is not Steve. New Thor is not Odinson. Kamala is not Carol. We don't even know who is in the Iron Man suit. These are new characters to the Avengers. Same superhero name, but different characters. These characters are more than just their powers.

This basically.

[ijacksparrow]

And yet Batman has been consistently popular for decades.

And it's not like their upcoming film slate has a slew of new properties...oh wait.

Batman is popular because he IS Batman. And by that I mean that he is consistent, Bruce Wayne is Batman. Other than Jean Paul Valley and Dick Grayson short stints, that's always the case, and that's why Snyder's book is so consistent. And same goes for Wonder Woman book.

In the Marvel's side, now Captain America is a) Steve Rogers b) Sam Wilson c) Bucky Barnes. Spider-Men everywhere, Red and Green Hulk, and the list goes on. It's weakening the brand, and that's what I believe it's turning people off.

[Tazpocalapse]

Everything new is old in the Marvel U. Time to bring back the New Universe.

[Kirby Krackle]

Time to bring back the New Universe.

Check out Hickman's Avengers books. lol.

[Tazpocalapse]

Check out Hickman's Avengers books. lol.

I know it's great that some of the characters are being used.

[Reviresco]

Is this thread literally about judging a book by its cover?

Yes.

It's obviously not about the covers itself that I'm talking about, but feel free to completely miss my point.

How is it not about the covers? Have you somehow actually read any issue of ANAD Avengers? You are the one comparing COVERS, and talking about those old derivative COVERS being 'new'. And you are the one that is letting one single COVER, of an Avengers book --a team which has never featured a complete roster of brand new characters, ever -- dampen your enthusiasm for a derivative event and it's horde of derivative tie-ins, and what follows.

I swear..

If this cover was Steve Rogers, Stark, Odinson, Vision, Carol Danvers, Richard Rider, and Peter Parker, none of this "weird-ish" complaints would exist.

Instead of focusing on the fact that, "DIVERSITY OMG," you could focus on the fact they are takign some established avengers (Vision, Falcon, maybe Stark) and for some reason mixing them with some VERY VERY new and/or young heros like new Nova, Lady Thor, new Ms. Marvel, and Miles.

Hell, not only is Miles a young character... he is also going to be stuck in an entirely different universe where "spider-man" means something different.

Why not get excited about that aspect and that mixture of characters? Why is everyone so focused on the diversity aspect when they are moaning and complaining?

Ironically, it's what supposed to drive the X-Men books. "I don't want to be replaced by the Other." Personally, I don't care for most legacy characters, and hate having my favorite characters replaced (Marcus Johnson can DIAF of oblivion). But doing so for diversity's sake is one of the few legitimate reasons to do so, IMO.

I don't understand what is wrong with the original superheroes that they need all kinds of different variations about them. Yes DC is to blame for the same kind of behavior, but not lately. Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the last "Crisis", Superman is Superman, Batman is Batman and Wonder Woman is Wonder Woman. And here is where it gets tricky: DC is to blame for not trying something new as much as Marvel, but when Marvel tries something "new", it's basically a derivative character from an established one. "It's hard to create new characters that stick", yes, I get that, but why the hell they are forcing Inhumans into the mutants place instead of creating a new IP? I wouldn't mind that move if they completely reinvent the Inhumans from the ground up, just keeping the name and such, but that's not what Marvel is doing.

What Marvel is doing is turning the Inhumans in the X-Men, but at the same time bringing all the baggage and contrived storyline that the Inhumans have. Regardless how much Marvel tries to push Medusa, she seems a completely campy character to me, especially if you are going to place her as your "Professor X". I mean, her power is her hair. What I wish we would have, instead of versions of versions of version of these characters is... new stuff. I love Marvel and this All-New, All-Different Avengers and "Uncanny" Inhumans screams stagnation and rehashing of old ideas with derivative concepts.

I wish Marvel could be bold and create NEW stuff. Like they used to make in the past. And yes, Runaways and Next Wave wouldn't be new, and that's exactly what I'm saying: bring the Runaways and Next Wave back, give them talented writers and artists and the right push. Create NEW concepts, create new heroes and villains. I am tired of seeing Marvel using "pushing for diversity" as a getaway card for lazy editorial lines that keep creating versions of these characters time and time again. This isn't "thinking forward" to me. Runaways out of the left field concept in the other hand, it was. You don't need to retire the old characters and push for new ones that are replacement of the old ones, you can create different stories with the old ones, and new stories and concepts with the new ones.

I just think whatever "push" Marvel is doing, it made me went from "very excited for Secret Wars" to "yeah this is my jumping off point", and I don't think that's what they should be aiming for.

If you think DC is doing it "right," then go read DC.

[Luck911]

All I'm saying is, Marvel is gonna hit a wall when people get bored of Iron Man, Thor and Cap.

Keep waiting. Marvel and DC are invested keeping those characters interesting and will reinvent/reboot characters if necessary.

[chaosfist]

People need to give up with this idea that Marvel write comics with their needs in mind. Old readers accepting of change? Is that supposed to be a joke. On this page there are 3 threads saying the exact same thing. The Avengers is not what they should be in some shape or form. Not to mention the threads that are called something else but discussing the exact same thing. Yeah so far there aren't too many old readers wanting change. They're usually bitching about the changes that have been made. Marvel wants to grow it's business and bring in more readers. There is nothing wrong with growing a business. Or at least trying to do so. As for leaving its like Tom Breevort said; the people that leave just leave they don't post long winded look at me rants on the internet working them up to leaving. What's really hilarious is that no one really has any idea what things will look like after secret wars. Things could be completely different like this guy wants or completely the same like the other threads want or something in between. What it will not be is personalized comics meant to please everyone.

[Tofali]

All I'm saying is, Marvel is gonna hit a wall when people get bored of Iron Man, Thor and Cap.

Well Marvel already is bored of Thor, Iron Man and Cap.

[Prof. Warren]

My point is that they are doing it wrong. They are scaring away old readers hoping that they'll get new readers.

But they're not "scaring away old readers." Being in my mid-40s, I think it's a safe bet that I'm older than you and I read a **** ton of new Marvel. If something doesn't appeal to you personally, that's fine, but don't presume that "older" fans all have the same opinion.

[Username taken]

Well, not everything is for everyone.

I can understand the OPs point that what Marvel is putting out doesn't appeal to him. At that point, its up to you as an individual to decide what you enjoy and what you don't. I read a lot more independents now because I enjoy a lot of that stuff.

[AcesX1X]

it's the tag line marvel used for giant-size x-men #1 when they introduced the diverse krakoa team.

they haven't really used it since. technically, i suppose it applies, but only in the very literal sense. not the historical one however.