"All-New, All-Different" Marvel Comics or "All-Derivative, All-Rehashed" Marvel Comics?

[Kizaru]

So it seems we got two people telling us "Who knows if thats Miles and Tony?" in comments/interviews, so if thats not Miles which I believe it is and they are just not confirming to build expectation, imagining it isn't who do you guys think it might be? whoever is in that suit looks kinda small so its not Peter, its not a girl because no bewbs(could be flat chest but nah doubt it), any speculation?

As for Ironman, I would be fine with Arno being the one in the armor, I'm ruling out the Ultimate Ironman because thats still Tony if they are teasing its not Tony it shouldn't be any version of him then or maybe crazy theory that I don't really believe but the Teen Abomination kid he is taking care of it, kinda using him but if Tony gets inverted back or Pepper makes him he probably heals the kid and that kid could use the armor

[ijacksparrow]

This is obviously a riff to Arkham Knight, which will probably be a masterpiece (I've been off DC Comics for almost two decades, but anything that involves Paul Dini's Batman, I'm in). This won't be permanent neither is been marketed as such. DC knows well that Batman is their main dog and they -mostly - don't mess with him.

My point is that what makes these characters UNIQUE is how they are written, meaning who they are. People love Peter Parker because he is unique. People love Batman because he is Batman. People love Deadpool because he is Deadpool. Once Marvel establishes that "anyone can be these characters", instead of creating and marketing new ones that are their own characters instead of legacy characters, it seems to me that it weakens the brand.

I feel like there are just too many versions of the main Marvel characters running around. I expected them to go away after Secret Wars and Marvel would focus on strengthen their brand by showing us what is so great about Peter, Steve, Tony, Thor and Bruce, but it seems to me that they are committed with a brand of "minority effort" that simply doesn't appeal to me because it reeks of gimmick.

Yes, I might be just a "jaded Marvel fanboy". But I don't want my "favorites" back, I don't think Runaways or Next Wave should make a come back if Marvel won't push these books properly, like they did with Guardians of the Galaxy for example. What I'm saying is that these "replacement" all new, all different Marvel Universe is looking like a bad joke to me.

I wish Marvel would let their main characters be their main characters, I wish Marvel would make Iron Man the flagship book that it truly could be if they made the right push, I wish Marvel wouldn't let Bendis Miles Morales become the main Spider-Man because Peter Parker isn't and shouldn't be a legacy character. I wish Marvel would make NEW concepts and NEW stories, instead of treating their characters like they are clothes that new characters could simply get on.

Bruce Wayne is Batman because only him could be. Steve Rogers is Captain America because only him could be. Diana is Wonder Woman because only she could be. Peter Parker is Spider-Man because only him could be. Once anyone can be these characters and Marvel is just rehashing their old ideas... What is the point?

[Mister Mets]

I'm trying to figure out how a team with at least four characters new to the Avengers is a rehash.

It would also be a different dynamic to the series to have three teenagers on the book.

[ijacksparrow]

I'm trying to figure out how a team with at least four characters new to the Avengers is a rehash.

It would also be a different dynamic to the series to have three teenagers on the book.

It's a rehash because the "diversity through legacy" initiative that Marvel is doing since Miles Morales is weakening who these characters are. It's a rehash because there is a reason that Robin Hood is Robin Hood and not the Sheriff, there is a reason why it wouldn't make sense to Watson to become Sherlock Holmes. These are iconic characters treated like they are nothing but names and a costume. When it should be more than that. That's why I've said that "DC is doing it right with Batman", because they understand that people don't want A Batman, they want THE Batman, and that's Bruce Wayne. And the same applies to the Marvel characters, unfortunately I don't think Marvel's editorial understands that. They think that with the right push, they can make anyone become these characters: and they are correct, they are the masters of the Marvel universe after all. My question is at what cost? Isn't the several versions of the Marvel characters getting a little old now? What this will make for the brand of these characters in the long run? Why people don't care about Captain Marvel Jr. and Mary Marvel like they do with Captain Marvel (Shazam)? It's just food for thought.

[ijacksparrow]

There should be brand new and fresh minority characters. The best completely original minority characters that I can think of in the Marvel Universe were created for the Runaways back in 2003. I can't for the life of me understand people that think that someone like new Nova or Miles Morales are somehow more iconic than any of those Runaways kids.

And again: I'm not saying for them to bring them back because I like them, I'm saying that Marvel should push for NEW content instead of making all these legacy characters taking over the names and costumes of the classic characters. I'm saying create new concepts like Millar and Vaughan keep turning new concepts one after the other. I'm not saying Marvel should bring Millar back or write gory stories like he does, I'm saying Marvel should be CREATIVE and create fresh ideas with all kind of new characters, instead of creating several versions of their old characters, especially when there are literally around three versions of their classic characters running around.

[Reviresco]

My point is that what makes these characters UNIQUE is how they are written, meaning who they are. People love Peter Parker because he is unique. People love Batman because he is Batman. People love Deadpool because he is Deadpool. Once Marvel establishes that "anyone can be these characters", instead of creating and marketing new ones that are their own characters instead of legacy characters, it seems to me that it weakens the brand.

But you haven't READ anything, so how do you know how they are written? As for the rest, that's just your opinion. There's plenty of essays written on the appeal of superheroes, and a good portion of it talks about archetypes, not uniqueness. Also, I don't like any of those characters, even if they are Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne and Wade Wilson.

Yes, I might be just a "jaded Marvel fanboy". But I don't want my "favorites" back, I don't think Runaways or Next Wave should make a come back if Marvel won't push these books properly, like they did with Guardians of the Galaxy for example. What I'm saying is that these "replacement" all new, all different Marvel Universe is looking like a bad joke to me.

That means you DO want your particular old favorites back, AND you want them to stick around by Marvel putting all the support and attention they have into them. That's doubly selfish and again, contradicts your claim that you want new characters and concepts.

[ijacksparrow]

Now this is a more interesting discussion. The problem is that Marvel HAS tried new stuff, it just doesn't stick. Maybe they didn't try their hardest, but it's not like they haven't tried. A.I., Academy and Arena all tried to expand the brand in a direction that was completely different from "core" Avengers books. They were not received well enough to stick. Heck you mention Nextwave and that also was not received well commercially either. The readership couldn't pay the cost to keep the creators, and it's not like Immonen and Ellis were small time creators. They were just as talented then as they are now.

Which raises the question - could a truly All New All Different Avengers team work in the long term in the current market? I'm not quite sure. I'd love to see Marvel try but the readership has been built to have certain expectations of how certain properties should look and behave.

My opinion is that Marvel haven't tried hard enough, like they did with Guardians of the Galaxy. And no, creating ancillary Avengers books doesn't count as FRESH in my book. I'm talking about brand new concepts, like Nextwave and Runaways, let me remind you that Guardians weren't popular once either.

[Reviresco]

There should be brand new and fresh minority characters. The best completely original minority characters that I can think of in the Marvel Universe were created for the Runaways back in 2003. I can't for the life of me understand people that think that someone like new Nova or Miles Morales are somehow more iconic than any of those Runaways kids.

And again: I'm not saying for them to bring them back because I like them, I'm saying that Marvel should push for NEW content instead of making all these legacy characters taking over the names and costumes of the classic characters. I'm saying create new concepts like Millar and Vaughan keep turning new concepts one after the other. I'm not saying Marvel should bring Millar back or write gory stories like he does, I'm saying Marvel should be CREATIVE and create fresh ideas with all kind of new characters, instead of creating several versions of their old characters, especially when there are literally around three versions of their classic characters running around.

And I ask again, exactly what new concepts did Millar and Vaughn bring to the Marvel MU? The Runaways, while a fun book, that I enjoyed reading at first, barely qualifies as a superhero book, much less an iconic one. The kids did'nt even have costumes.

And Millar??? You keep complaining about how there are too many versions of these superheroes, and then hold up Millar, who has written tons of alternate universe versions of characters, adding MORE versions of these superheroes. Contradictory, IMO.

[ijacksparrow]

But you haven't READ anything, so how do you know how they are written? As for the rest, that's just your opinion. There's plenty of essays written on the appeal of superheroes, and a good portion of it talks about archetypes, not uniqueness. Also, I don't like any of those characters, even if they are Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne and Wade Wilson.




That means you DO want your particular old favorites back, AND you want them to stick around by Marvel putting all the support and attention they have into them. That's doubly selfish and again, contradicts your claim that you want new characters and concepts.

No, this means that I find the notion that anyone can be Spider-Man or write whoever classic superhero here as silly as replacing Sherlock Holmes, but hey, feel free to completely miss the point of what I'm talking about or dismiss what I'm saying, but I haven't seen a single good argument on why "anyone can be these superheroes" theme that Marvel is doing lately is somehow good for their brand in the long term. History tells me that I'm correct, there is a reason why there are new versions of Red Riding Hood with Grandma replacing her granddaughter. Marvel is running their characters concepts to the ground in my opinion, and that's not healthy for them or comics in general in the long run.

[UltimateTy]

She obviously is representative to women, who are a minority.

Maybe in comics but not in the real world lol.

My opinion is that Marvel haven't tried hard enough, like they did with Guardians of the Galaxy. And no, creating ancillary Avengers books doesn't count as FRESH in my book. I'm talking about brand new concepts, like Nextwave and Runaways, let me remind you that Guardians weren't popular once either.

Gotg got popular because of the movie unless Marvel makes a movie for every obscure property that won't happen.

[Reviresco]

My opinion is that Marvel haven't tried hard enough, like they did with Guardians of the Galaxy. And no, creating ancillary Avengers books doesn't count as FRESH in my book. I'm talking about brand new concepts, like Nextwave and Runaways, let me remind you that Guardians weren't popular once either.

GotG was popular and successful enough to have a 62 issue run, and 4 or 5 series before the movies, which is more than you can say about Runaways or Nextwave. Also DnA's GotG was popular amongst cosmic fans and inspired the writer of the movie.

You do realize, there's nothing new or fresh about Peter Parker as Spider-Man, right?

You do realize that Marvel's push of GotG recently is entirely due to a multi-million dollar movie coming out, and then the enormous billion dollar success of said movie? You do realize that Marvel publishing can't devote the same dollars or energy into pushing all your favorite books, right?

They don't have unlimited resources. They allocate funds to _proven_ properties that have a better chance of making them money. That's why they get pushed over unproven, new risky properties. That's also why they do legacy characters, in the hopes that attaching a NEW character to a proven property will cut down on the risk of loss. It's a business. Not your own personal vanity press.

[ijacksparrow]

Sort of given, when the first post starts complaining about diversity, allegedly because it wasn't done "right."




See above. It happens alot, as a response to complaints of diversity or minorities being 'forced' on them.




She obviously is representative to women, who are a minority.

No, I'm not complaining "about diversity", that's precisely what Marvel is selling, that those that oppose change are against diversity, when that's not the case. Runaways had the first LBGT teenager female character that I can remember of, it was a very ethnic diverse group, and because Marvel couldn't market it right, it went away. And answering your clearly not well thought out and reactive posts about Runaways not been a new concept for Marvel: it was and it is. Young kids revolting against a secret villain cabal that operates in Los Angeles hidden from the East superheroes eyes is a brilliant concept. It's so brilliant that Marvel has plans for them in the future at the movies, my problem is not with diversity, but how derivative the diversity that Marvel selling is. How derivative their Inhumans is. How derivative and full of legacy characters their All New, All Different Avengers is. What I'm saying is Marvel is NOT pushing diversity right because they are doing at the cost of their characters brand.

People don't want a Spider-Man, a Captain America and a Thor in a team, they want THE Spider-MAn, THE Captain America and THE Thor. What I'm seeing is Marvel doing several versions of these characters instead of creating brand new ones. When your best cast of diverse characters comes from a book from 2003 and not something you're doing right now, there's clearly something wrong with the way your pushing for "diversity" imho. Hiding behind "diversity" doesn't make these characters good. Creating new and interesting concepts do.

[Reviresco]

Maybe in comics but not in the real world lol.

Really??? You actually think that's true?

And folks wonder why women are STILL in this day and age treated like crap.

[UltimateTy]

Really??? You actually think that's true?

And folks wonder why women are STILL in this day and age treated like crap.

There were more women in the world than men the last time I saw the stats.

[ijacksparrow]

You do realize, there's nothing new or fresh about Peter Parker as Spider-Man, right?

That's exactly why Marvel it's obviously doing it wrong. Suddenly there's a crowd of Marvel fans thinking there is nothing cool about Peter Parker or ANY of their characters because they aren't new, fresh and diverse enough. Peter Parker has been around since 1963, and Bruce Wayne has been around since 1939. They don't need to have anything "new, fresh and diverse" about them, they need to be the characters they are. Just like people shouldn't expect Sherlock Holmes to be anyone else but Sherlock Holmes. If you want to read about new, fresh and diverse characters, and clearly there is a market to that, Marvel should create new, fresh and creative ideas.

If you think there is nothing new or fresh about Peter Parker as Spider-Man, then you don't think there is nothing new or fresh about Spider-Man either. Because Peter Parker literally IS Spider-Man. Miles Morales is A Spider-Man, Dick Grayson was A Batman, but Peter Parker is THE Spider-Man and Bruce Wayne is THE Batman. And there's nothing wrong with that.