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  1. #12151
    Long Live The Phantom Aioros22's Avatar
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    Who`s the guy at Hawkman`s right with the red shirt/jacket and hat? Roy or civics Jay?
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  2. #12152
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Those core values weren't given by Batman sure but they were perhaps further cultivated by Batman when he took Dick and the others in. Could they have cultivated them on their own, sure, but without a stable environment Jason (and the rest) could very well have ended up a totally different people. For example a life spent on the streets would have had an effect on Jason's development and I think he would have later become embittered and would have ended up shedding what morals he had as time passed in order to simply survive in that environment.
    To be honest, I might have seen it that way too had King managed to nail Jason's character sometimes previously. As jaded by past experiences as I was, all I felt reading it was just another unflattering, comic-relieving take.
    Last edited by G-Potion; 06-13-2018 at 12:58 PM.

  3. #12153
    Incredible Member Rise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    It did become better between the time he was taken in and his eventual death though and that's really what I was talking about. Without that he would have been a stone cold criminal or perhaps dead.
    Being a homeless kid doesn't mean you are for sure going to end up being "a stone cold criminal" especially considering that Jason as kid had strong morals. Just look at his friend Gabby who didn't become criminal or real life examples of kids who turned out fine and some of them even end up being rich and successful.

    And about ending up dead, it's not like Batman improved his chances since he end up dead anyone and in the worst way possible no less.

  4. #12154
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    Flashpoint is a good example of Jason turning out fine without Bruce. Sure he struggled but he managed to turn his life around.

  5. #12155
    Fantastic Member okiedokiewo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    Who`s the guy at Hawkman`s right with the red shirt/jacket and hat? Roy or civics Jay?
    I'll admit I had the same question, but for now I'll assume Roy.

  6. #12156
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    I checked out tumblr and kind of wish I didn't. Some are calling it retconning B.S. I think the point of it was that Jason didn't know the whole story and we were previously only getting his POV.

  7. #12157
    Astonishing Member G-Potion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMarie View Post
    I checked out tumblr and kind of wish I didn't. Some are calling it retconning B.S. I think the point of it was that Jason didn't know the whole story and we were previously only getting his POV.
    Yikes. Meaning they hate that Lobdell humanized Willis?

  8. #12158
    Incredible Member Rise's Avatar
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    Tumblr is only good for art and gifs when it come to fandoms like this. They always whine and think they know characters better just from reading/watching one material of said character so it's always best to not bother with them.

  9. #12159
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    I skimmed through some of it. They said he was abusive and while I recall that I don't remember him hurting Jason. It took me a second to recall any mention of it. I do remember Jason telling Duela that his dad beat up his mom for wasting money on cigarettes. I think it could still work with Willis reaching his breaking point with his henchmen job, Jason's medical bills and them blaming each other for his illness.

  10. #12160
    Incredible Member Rise's Avatar
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    Well, Lobdell did turn Willis into good for nothing abusive father and it was implied that he did hit him. I remembered that we had an argurment here about it once and I argued how I really hated what he did. So, I'm glad that he rectonned it.

  11. #12161
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rise View Post
    Tumblr is only good for art and gifs when it come to fandoms like this. They always whine and think they know characters better just from reading/watching one material of said character so it's always best to not bother with them.
    And besides, as a rule of thumb, complaining people always, always are going to be more noisy than people who are fine with something. Even if they're few, people who usually give negative feedback usually get more attention, for whatever reason. It works for almost everything as far as i've noticed (business, art, you name it).
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  12. #12162
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMarie View Post
    I think it could still work with Willis reaching his breaking point with his henchmen job, Jason's medical bills and them blaming each other for his illness.
    I find the medical thing a little odd, I mean it can't have been something that had really long lasting consequences and must have happen really early in Jason live, or it would have been mentioned somewhere earlier.

    I'm also wondering why if Lobdell wanted to use the medical bills as reason for Willis going bad, why he din't used Catherine for it, which would fit better with DITF.

    It's of course also possible, Willis is also an unreliable narrator.

  13. #12163
    Caperucita Roja Zaresh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I find the medical thing a little odd, I mean it can't have been something that had really long lasting consequences and must have happen really early in Jason live, or it would have been mentioned somewhere earlier.

    I'm also wondering why if Lobdell wanted to use the medical bills as reason for Willis going bad, why he din't used Catherine for it, which would fit better with DITF.

    It's of course also possible, Willis is also an unreliable narrator.
    This is fun.

    Willis mentions his "bad genes" besides the drugs Catherine was in, as possible reasons.
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  14. #12164
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    I'm fine with it being retconned since the Willis from Jason's POV seemed too dumb to function.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I find the medical thing a little odd, I mean it can't have been something that had really long lasting consequences and must have happen really early in Jason live, or it would have been mentioned somewhere earlier.

    I'm also wondering why if Lobdell wanted to use the medical bills as reason for Willis going bad, why he din't used Catherine for it, which would fit better with DITF.

    It's of course also possible, Willis is also an unreliable narrator.
    I'm thinking Willis didn't get detailed for a reason. He says it could have been his bad genes or the drugs she never stopped taking. It sounds like the drugs would be more likely but Willis wouldn't want to say that. As someone else mentioned on tumblr Jason, like many babies with mothers who used while pregnant, likely was born addicted. He might be going through withdrawal.

  15. #12165
    Incredible Member Rise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    I find the medical thing a little odd, I mean it can't have been something that had really long lasting consequences and must have happen really early in Jason live, or it would have been mentioned somewhere earlier.

    I'm also wondering why if Lobdell wanted to use the medical bills as reason for Willis going bad, why he din't used Catherine for it, which would fit better with DITF.

    It's of course also possible, Willis is also an unreliable narrator.
    Why would he lie to Jason about that when he promised him in the first letter that he wouldn't? Seriously, the "unreliable narrator" is such a lazy and annoying excuse that I see being used a lot here.

    I have no problem with the medical thing because the theme of the issue was about fathers and sons and it makes sense he is his reason for getting involved with bad guys.

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