Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[SpentShrimp]

Variant for 15

That one is pretty damn clever. I like it.

[SpentShrimp]

Variant for 15

This is a good one. Pretty clever.

[SpentShrimp]

Whoops. Didn't see my other one get posted.

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Where do you guys stand on the spectrum of this Bat/Jason morality? Just curious to hear because I know people who disagree with Jason but still like his character and vice versa for Bruce too.

Personally I agree with Jason to an extent, in that some people just need to pay for their crimes. Even more if they are in a position where law can't touch them, and it happens very often where I live, where the government is widely regard as "evil" with no redeeming qualities. However, Jason's principals as of UTRH, and maybe even now, is not clear-cut because for him, his emotions always plays a big part in his decision and very often that decision is accompanied by a second motive as well (want Bruce to prove his love, want to reform Duela so that he can too...), so it's not something I could get behind completely. And that is why he needs to be on as many points on the spectrum as possible, because it challenges his initial belief.

That said, I think Lobdell gave a clever solution to this in Futures End, and before that with Suzie Su. Repent or die. It just works perfectly for Jason, in my opinion.

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It seems that there are some inconsistency about him. Was he in jail because of petty crimes, or to serve a life sentence? He was planning something extraordinary as his "redemption". Don't know what his ground is now.

I doubt Lobdell would go this way. I don't even think I want it to go this way but if Willis's crime is especially unforgivable, it would put Jason in a predicament where he has to choose how he stands between his principals regarding criminals and his familial ties.

[G-Potion]

Coming from the most successful fighting game player in the world. And he means the character gameplay design, not the "edgelord" attitude or whatever some people call it.

Can't wait till Eleague to watch his RH again.

[RedBird]

The one day all this juicy discussion happens and of course I miss it because exams.

I think Lobdell definitely isn't about to give Jason a change of heart, this kind of view is very much one of his core beliefs but for him to say all killing is wrong means he also on some level says he now believes for the hundreds of people Joker has probably murdered, Joker does not deserve any consequence outside of jail. Also to have him change his view for the sake of merging him back to batfamily just downright looks terrible if you consider it implies this family can only conditionally give him love as long as his beliefs match theirs and I'm not touching just how disturbingly alike that is to a good amount of real families living under strict religious/otherwise standards.

You have a point that the whole moral arguement isn't being touched on right now but I'd like to counter that in Atremis' arc, he dissociates during the torture scene and chooses to repeatedly kill the Joker. All of this happens after he chooses not to kill so he could set an example for Bizarro but here he knows it's all in his head he still tells us his choice is always going to be kill Joker. If his moral standpoint still needs to be discussed, I think it's also fair that Lobdell would save it for a later point when there's more setup for the story to go that direction and once the Outlaws are further along in their adventures.

I thought it felt shaky at first to have Jason think he needed to be an example for Bizarro when Bizarro already felt like such a kind soul but now that we know Bizarro is actively trying to hide those possibly intensely personal letters from Jason, I think he does need a guiding figure. He's no less kind hearted at all doing this because he wants to protect Jason but it's awesome to see some moral grey in the actions of this outlaw and it's a tricky but so far well done act to balance that action with with Bizarro's very well intentioned personality. Jason has been known to put 'acting on his own morality' on the backburner if it's for the sake of someone else and it really says a lot that his goal isn't about eliminating bad people, that helping someone else will always win over eliminating bad people for him.

Agree so hard with your last point too. To somehow justify his anger at Gotham's entire system of revolving jail doors as lashing out due to a hard life cheapens the entire viewpoint. I think UtRH hit home for a lot of people because places like Gotham happen in real life. We had a serial killer a few years back who murdered prostitutes because he thought they were "dirtied women". Police didn't do much and brushed off a lot because people reporting this were also prostitutes and then it really became a big deal just after finding out he fed the bodies to his pigs and those pigs were sold for human consumption. The revolving door also happens, last year we welcomed back a repeat offence pedophile who left jail after maybe 5 or 8 years. Never in real life should any comic book characters decisions be applied but there's also no denying Jason's situation and what he grew up with in Gotham is very much almost a story out of real life.

Anyways that was a long ass text wall that I'm sorry I made you read but question for you all. Where do you guys stand on the spectrum of this Bat/Jason morality? Just curious to hear because I know people who disagree with Jason but still like his character and vice versa for Bruce too.

I agree with all this, also Jason changing his morality to be more aligned with the Batfamily ie; Not killing, would definitely be an unwise move from Lobdell, especially from a character whose popularity rose from the deep rooted questioning of Batman definition of justice using a more lethal counter argument, and also from a more shallow perspective, the fact that he is attractive to people as the 'bat that kills'. Hell, as much as I don't like Batman and Robin eternal, even that featured a panel from Bruce saying that Jason as the Red Hood does what Batman can't when the world needs it, what else would that be alluding to besides taking out bad guys? That being said I don't mind this current predicament that Jason has found himself in, trying to more or less, curb his 'behavior' in order to set an example for Biz. Like you, I thought I would hate it but I feel like this latest arc could really dig deep into that premise when Jason is pushed to extremes.

In terms of where I stand on Bat/Jason thingy, if I had to pick one, for Gotham, for sure Jason. Mainly because Batmans whole methodology is not wrong, I'm not really for the death penalty myself, however, his colorful cast of villains along with Gotham are just not grounded in reality. In the real world the Joker would have been put to death by now, even with his so called 'insanity' granting him time in an asylum rather than a prison, with enough public outcry and his long proven list of crimes (plus the fact that he always escapes, threatening the public and causing chaos each time) he would have been put to death for terrorism, insane or not. (Along with probably a few more villains I just thought I would focus on the obvious one.) In the real world, perhaps choosing between the two would be more difficult, though for me it depends on certain factors, I may side with Jason again, especially if the conditions/limitations of his justice were more clear. ie; on what grounds does he kill.

However, for Gothams sake, I definitely would choose Jason, but of course thats not a notion we could even entertain, with Batmans no kill rule, aside from the presentation of a genuinely just and righteous moral code, conveniently means that his villains get to stay alive and theres very little questioning behind why the hell some of them haven't been put down despite their horrific crimes. Honestly at this point, especially with DC really pushing the evil actions of the Joker from the 80s onwards, its such a big elephant in the room that its rarely ever addressed, at least from a head on perspective. Until of course Jason came onto the scene as Red Hood and was a walking embodiment of why Batmans method didnt work in the long run, and why Joker should be killed. Its funny cause from a writing standpoint it kinda makes you wonder why the writers would dare bring up such a notion that would clearly rock and pick away at Bruces foundation of justice by exposing its flaws, its like drawing attention to your plot holes. That is until you realize that Jason wasn't meant to live a second time and was planned to die by the end of the arc, thus killing that embodiment of the questioning and criticism to Batmans morality and simultaneously punishing the one (Jason) that dared question it in the first place, placing Batman safely back into the place of moral superiority and authority over Gotham. Also of course Winnick just wanted for Bruce to kill Jason with that horrible throat slice as the ultimate man pain irony that Bruce, after years of mourning his sons death, would then be the one to take him from the world, but thats a story for another day.

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@Everyone: teach me how to write walls of text guyssss why does my opinion take like two sentences and that's it.

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That is until you realize that Jason wasn't meant to live a second time and was planned to die by the end of the arc, thus killing that embodiment of the questioning and criticism to Batmans morality and simultaneously punishing the one (Jason) that dared question it in the first place, placing Batman safely back into the place of moral superiority and authority over Gotham. Also of course Winnick just wanted for Bruce to kill Jason with that horrible throat slice as the ultimate man pain irony that Bruce, after years of mourning his sons death, would then be the one to take him from the world, but thats a story for another day.

Overcoming a second death. This man is really something else.

[magpieM]

I doubt Lobdell would go this way. I don't even think I want it to go this way but if Willis's crime is especially unforgivable, it would put Jason in a predicament where he has to choose how he stands between his principals regarding criminals and his familial ties.

Oh that's only my random guess. Lobdell still keeps us in the dark about the letter except that Ma Gunn got a shellshock after reading it. So basically everything is possible now.

[G-Potion]

Was stuck for so long but finally got this done yeeee . Showing you guys first before throwing it at Lord Dexter Soy.

[DamianBane]

http://3eden.tumblr.com/

Wow that’s amazing

[magpieM]

Was stuck for so long but finally got this done yeeee . Showing you guys first before throwing it at Lord Dexter Soy.

Wow this is awesome. Soy will be ecstatic!

They are so cute in the second figure, too! (Family travel?)

Finally I finished reading this thread from page 1... You've been creating great art here!

[G-Potion]

Wow this is awesome. Soy will be ecstatic!

They are so cute in the second figure, too! (Family travel?)

Yep. And it seems Jason is the only one who cares to look culturally appropriate.

Finally I finished reading this thread from page 1... You've been creating great art here!

Haha that's dedication. Personally I feel this thread is becoming a much better place to be as there is not so much negativity as before. And thaaaank you!! I have ideas for a lot more to come.

[The Whovian]

Was stuck for so long but finally got this done yeeee . Showing you guys first before throwing it at Lord Dexter Soy.

That is cool!