Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Aioros22]

Now that Jason is no longer the only former Robin willing to use a gun, I wonder if that will change his position in the Bat-family in any way (if only with Bruce and Dick).

I don`t think it will. Both characters should stay recognizable to the audience and writers likely won`t dissipate the contrast that much (because it draws readers in and makes interactions interesting). If anything, if Dick uses a gun it will be in a last case scenario, or it will be a tranq gun or something. Even still, Jason will always be different, a merit to the particular and unique background that nobody else in the family quite shares.

[oasis1313]

Same here. I, too, am bored of Roy and Kory. Jason can go in any direction he pleases, and he SHOULD (IMHO).

[JasonTodd428]

No they're not. If anything, they're preventing him from sliding back into the same old "bad Robin with daddy issues" crap that writers get doing pre-New 52. If Roy and Kory were gone, Jason would grow as a character, nothing in DC's past track record indicates that they would do that. What their track record does indicate is that he'd REGRESS as a character back to the same old status quo, which doesn't interest me.

Seeing the solicit for the "Future's End" onshot I have to agree with you since it pretty much states that Jason (without Roy and Kori) returns to a "new mission of retribution and brutal justice", which to my mind is just regressing the character back to his old status quo. Yeah, it's for an issue but still. I'm not at all interested in reading about that version of Jason again and I, for one, am glad that Roy and Kori are there to keep him grounded. He's not really had anyone that keeps him grounded since his resurrection and that's been a part of the problem.

[IndianaDrake]

To me Jason's willingness to commit brutal justice and different take on crime is what made him unique. He was the former robin with an edge that believed you couldn't stop crime so he had to control it. In a way it was actually a pretty legitimate argument. To be honest i really do not see anything unique about Jason what so ever in the new 52. In The Outlaws he just seems like even more of Dick Grayson clone except a little more willing to kill. I don't see this as Jason developing past his issues because that's not how it was written. Instead he was just all of the sudden a nicer more well rounded guy with no special attributes. He did not grow, he become redundant.

[Aioros22]

To me Jason's willingness to commit brutal justice and different take on crime is what made him unique.

That`s what he is.

He was the former robin with an edge that believed you couldn't stop crime so he had to control it.

He`s not interested in that anymore (according to the new 52 so far). That entails a level of obesession he had with controling the crime element in Gotham. In the end that only leads to one place.

They can go there, but it needs to be better written and with more balance.

In a way it was actually a pretty legitimate argument. To be honest i really do not see anything unique about Jason what so ever in the new 52.

His backstory alone with the Al-Caste sets him apart, nevermind the experiences in his childhood.

In The Outlaws he just seems like even more of Dick Grayson clone except a little more willing to kill. I don't see this as Jason developing past his issues because that's not how it was written. Instead he was just all of the sudden a nicer more well rounded guy with no special attributes. He did not grow, he become redundant.

Entire arcs, including the issue #0 were entirely devoted to him growing past his obessesion over Gotham, growing past his childhood in the streets in a gang, the idea that Joker played him the entire life, getting in some terms with Bruce (the reasonable ones at least) until big B screws it up - again, admitting that he can`t do everything alone, admitting he had too much hatred, etc. The edge is still there, perfectly mentioned in the same arcs. He will always have it, and Bruce knows it, which is why he called him to deal directly with Mongul Jr and not anyone else (Babs was in the backup).

The reason he`s more well rounded is exactly because he`s grown from a certain point.

Oh, and no special atributes? Al-Caste? Untitled? Guns? Magical blades? Talia Al Ghul training? This former robin knows magic-fu. Top that spy-bird.

[IndianaDrake]

That`s what he is.



He`s not interested in that anymore (according to the new 52 so far). That entails a level of obesession he had with controling the crime element in Gotham. In the end that only leads to one place.

They can go there, but it needs to be better written and with more balance.



His backstory alone with the Al-Caste sets him apart, nevermind the experiences in his childhood.



Entire arcs, including the issue #0 were entirely devoted to him growing past his obessesion over Gotham, growing past his childhood in the streets in a gang, the idea that Joker played him the entire life, getting in some terms with Bruce (the reasonable ones at least) until big B screws it up - again, admitting that he can`t do everything alone, admitting he had too much hatred, etc. The edge is still there, perfectly mentioned in the same arcs. He will always have it, and Bruce knows it, which is why he called him to deal directly with Mongul Jr and not anyone else (Babs was in the backup).

The reason he`s more well rounded is exactly because he`s grown from a certain point.

Oh, and no special atributes? Al-Caste? Untitled? Guns? Magical blades? Talia Al Ghul training? This former robin knows magic-fu. Top that spy-bird.

Yeah he has a unique back story but over all his personality is becoming more and more watered down. Plus its not like he knows magic , he just has some mystical blades and has dealt with some mystic enemies. Dick has pretty much dealt with everything in the DC universe over his 75 year history. There is literally not one single thing Jason can do better.

[IndianaDrake]

Also just because i think he should go back to brutal justice and controlling crime does not mean i think Jason should go back to Gotham because then we would just have Under the Red hood to play out all over again. I think he should leave Gotham behind and do these things on a international scale. Without Batman being involved in the story it would be a great seeing how that tactic works out and how far Jason could take it.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Yeah he has a unique back story but over all his personality is becoming more and more watered down. Plus its not like he knows magic , he just has some mystical blades and has dealt with some mystic enemies. Dick has pretty much dealt with everything in the DC universe over his 75 year history. There is literally not one single thing Jason can do better.

See, he problem with this is that Grayson will ALWAYS return to Gotham and deal with crime Batman-style. That's why he becoming Batman was so well received, Grayson as character only has an end, succeding Bruce some way or another he could've faced a lot of things on the past but see him on the N52 his entire existance depends on Gotham and his relationship with Bruce. (and you're kidding yourself if you think than the spy angle will be permanent, sooner or later he will be back either as Nightwing or as Batman partner)

Jason lacks that baggage, he can be ANYTHING now add his former experiences with Batman and you have a character with TONS of potential that it only need to let goo the 'bat crutch' to see that potential realized.

[Aioros22]

Yeah he has a unique back story but over all his personality is becoming more and more watered down.

What part of his personality you feel they watered down? The rage? I for one, thank them for it. He`s still a snarky SOB, but he`s more rounded because he`s experienced more now.

Plus its not like he knows magic, he just has some mystical blades and has dealt with some mystic enemies.

No one said he casts magic. What he now knows is mystical MA techniques. Something that...

Dick has pretty much dealt with everything in the DC universe over his 75 year history.

...Dick barely touched upon in his 75y history. But this, is the new52.

There is literally not one single thing Jason can do better.

Backstory, sarcasm, noir, being driven, magic-fu.

I`m not among readers who feel one has to be better than the other in everything. Dick is more grounded than anyone else in the Family, the natural leader, the more mature character and the better acrobatic.

Also just because i think he should go back to brutal justice and controlling crime does not mean i think Jason should go back to Gotham because then we would just have Under the Red hood to play out all over again. I think he should leave Gotham behind and do these things on a international scale. Without Batman being involved in the story it would be a great seeing how that tactic works out and how far Jason could take it.

If he tries to control crime on an internacional scale, he will have entire teams on his head. No writer will be able to justify how he can walk Scott free. It`s better if he targets crime on an internacional scale, but freelance/adventurer/merc style. Which is kinda what they have been doing, except with two "buddy cops" at his side.

I`m not saying they can`t improve the direction of the formula, by the way. Editorial should always aim for that.

[IndianaDrake]

See, he problem with this is that Grayson will ALWAYS return to Gotham and deal with crime Batman-style. That's why he becoming Batman was so well received, Grayson as character only has an end, succeding Bruce some way or another he could've faced a lot of things on the past but see him on the N52 his entire existance depends on Gotham and his relationship with Bruce. (and you're kidding yourself if you think than the spy angle will be permanent, sooner or later he will be back either as Nightwing or as Batman partner)

Jason lacks that baggage, he can be ANYTHING now add his former experiences with Batman and you have a character with TONS of potential that it only need to let goo the 'bat crutch' to see that potential realized.

See but whats so great about Grayson is he has baggage in almost every corner of DC. It would not be hard to give him his own corner of the universe that embraces other aspects of the character other than the Bat side. Also there is nothing wrong with Bat family crossovers as long as it does not derail the title. Besides Jason is just as tied to the Bat family. He is just as involved in crossovers as Dick is. In fact more so considering Grayson not even in Eternal. I actually do hope this spy direction sticks and its great. I know it is probably unlikely but stranger things have happened.

[IndianaDrake]

What part of his personality you feel they watered down? The rage? I for one, thank them for it. He`s still a snarky SOB, but he`s more rounded because he`s experienced more now.



No one said he casts magic. What he now knows is mystical MA techniques. Something that...



...Dick barely touched upon in his 75y history. But this, is the new52.



Backstory, sarcasm, noir, being driven, magic-fu.

I`m not among readers who feel one has to be better than the other in everything. Dick is more grounded than anyone else in the Family, the natural leader, the more mature character and the better acrobatic.



If he tries to control crime on an internacional scale, he will have entire teams on his head. No writer will be able to justify how he can walk Scott free. It`s better if he targets crime on an internacional scale, but freelance/adventurer/merc style. Which is kinda what they have been doing, except with two "buddy cops" at his side.

I`m not saying they can`t improve the direction of the formula, by the way. Editorial should always aim for that.

Well there are plenty of Crime lords that in the DC universe that whole teams never go after. Jason knows how criminals get caught. It would not be hard make sure there is no connection to him. The reason i like Jason is because his flaws make him the most easy to relate to inthe Bat family. I understand that this status quo may seem like a step back for the character if done wrong but if done right Jason would not be doing it in spite of Batman like in UtRH. He would be doing it because he legitimately believed it was the best way to make a real difference.

[oasis1313]

I think Jason should consider the entire rest of the Bat-Family a bunch of Girl Scouts (heck, even Brownie Scouts) kindergarten club. Dick and Tim are the "good boys". Damian is the biological son. Jason is the black sheep, but he shouldn't lose any sleep over it. He would be "let the pantywaists do their thing in Gotham City and I'll do mine someplace else where they won't cramp my style.

[EdwardNigma]

I want to see him as the vigilante with a grudge against Batman. Bring him back to what makes him interesting rather than just a black sheep of the Batman family. Let him go after and kill villains. Let him try to kill Batman if he gets in the way. THIS is what made the character interesting not a Robin who can be somewhat bad.

[Aioros22]

Well there are plenty of Crime lords that in the DC universe that whole teams never go after.

Such as?

Jason knows how criminals get caught. It would not be hard make sure there is no connection to him.

His mentors would know sooner or later. Jason isn`t a Fisk kind of character. He`s not the brain that stays lurking in the shadow, he takes action upon it. And you can`t survive in that kind of lead without taking some risks and making connections.

The reason i like Jason is because his flaws make him the most easy to relate to inthe Bat family.

Agreed.

I understand that this status quo may seem like a step back for the character if done wrong but if done right Jason would not be doing it in spite of Batman like in UtRH. He would be doing it because he legitimately believed it was the best way to make a real difference.

It`s a fine line to deal with. Look at Catwoman in Eternal, she`ll be a crimelord (not necessarily a villain), but she got the whole Bat-stable on her and she`s not even as lethal as Jason tends to be on other criminals. But yes, he should be doing whatever he does, because it`s what he believes is true. But..they kind of do that in RHATO too.

The small contention here seems to be that he doesn`t kill enough and that is what makes him stand out. His code of ethics, sarcasm, fire and lethality at the core do make him stand out, but in order for a character to grow, he should expand upon. He`s more than just a guy who can kill criminals. Maybe instead of being a "crimelord" he should lead a shadow squad. Like the League or similar. Maybe a new Al Caste. But how many would say that is giving him too much power?

[Aioros22]

I want to see him as the vigilante with a grudge against Batman. Bring him back to what makes him interesting rather than just a black sheep of the Batman family. Let him go after and kill villains. Let him try to kill Batman if he gets in the way. THIS is what made the character interesting not a Robin who can be somewhat bad.

A grudge against Batman doesn`t honestly benefit him anymore. I mean, not more than the grudge he still carries around because Bruce is a dick. In order for him and Batman to be at extreme odds to the point where he would try to kill Batman, he would have to be still obesessing over the Joker somewhat. That is the breaking point among them.

You know what I liked best in DOTF? Joker trying to rile Jason up and Jason telling him in the face it didn`t work any longer. That`s growth.