Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Ya, a character who stands on his own with a red bat symbol on his chest, and always supported with other long standing DC characters put in his book for Jason to stand next to. Starting business called rent-a-bat and pushing ideas like this Dark Trinity. But i guess since Jason is being moved away from Batman's shadow, as you guys so claim, Jason is the analog for WW in this Dark Trinity. Please. Moved him away from Bruce's shadow and develop him into his own man. Ya, sure .

Some clarifications here:

* The Red Bat is a marketing move (and a pretty effective one at that) that was bound to come sooner or later. DC is after all business. While in-story is meant to symbolize Jason coming to terms with his past nut not for that he's letting that past control him.

* And what is the problem with Jason having a supporting cast or friends? Hell, the fact he's turned into more of a team player is a pretty notorious for his character.

* Rent A Bat was a great direction for him and one pretty unique within the DCU. Plus, you it was Roy's idea and again, is simply playing a bit with Batman's popularity in universe.

* The Dark Trinity is on DC entirely and yeah, he's playing the role of a dark counterpart to Batman because that is what fans demanded (some of them at least) Remember, the whole point of Rebirth was to brought back the characterization and direction people missed from the N52.

[godisawesome]

I do agree it's an oversimplification to say that Lobdell is editorial's puppet, or that some of the moves they've made with Jason that seem derivative can also be linked to fan demand and market requirements...

...But...

...There are far to many features of even his work that guys like you love that seem dictated entirely by editorials desire. The intitial line-up of RHATO feels just as artificially manufactured as anything else in the New 52, and while Lobdell managed to make it work, that lack of execution on Starfire's...perception of the world around her and her sensuality in the first issue showcases that the combination of himself and his editors were blind to some major portrayal issues. The arrival of the unwanted, derided, and to several readers, sign-that-editorial-wants-this-crappy-character-to-be-the-next-big-thing Joker's Daughter to the series was also clearly an editorial mandate. Its the same thing that lead to Teen Titans featuring Lance, bane of DC fans who showed they had taste by staying away from such drivel in the 90's, or the endless tie-in notes, or having a crossover with Forever Evil that then slipped into the Replacement Superboy arc that was a cancer on that property, or coming back to the second volume to finish off the $#!+ he'd started by brining back Harvest on editorial demand to basically defame and bury Superboy in the middle of someone else's arc. And even on his Superman run, you could tell when he was given jobs like "shill the Wonder Woman romance hard" because it never felt natural, it felt like what a professional writer receiving marching orders would do.

The new Rebirth line-up is clearly manufactured around a concept, and while I think Lobdell will probably suit your expectations and tastes there, my immediate reaction was "Huh, Bizarro's always kind of boring to me, and I'd hoped to see Artemis in something more...ambitious."

Because that's ultimately my opinion of Lobdell in top form: unambitious. I don't hear you guys praising excellent villains or clear cut character work; even someone as passionate and eloquent as you, Dark Tziitzimine, cites an entire run as subtly exploring that theme. What I hear you guys praise week in and week out is consistent, popcorn movie action and character interaction. that's a great thing to have, but it's not enough to match the quality that I expect out of this character.

And my opinion of him in poor form is pretty bad: the perfect instrument to show what happens when no one in creative cares about a property except for what shallow understanding of it they can briefly fail to combine with marketing tricks. And for the record, that doesn't put him in horrific company, just the company of other writers who I only want to read when they're on, which is generally a little rare. He's like Judd Winnick; when he's got an awesome story to tell, great!...But keep him the hell away from my characters if he's just doing what editorial wants. And unfortunately, I think that's part of the reason why Lobdell being a willing worker, as you put it, hurts his creative output. It would have been better for the brands of Teen Titans if he'd quit the book when editorial started screwing with him, and sadly, there's a part of me that feels it might be better for Red Hood is he quits now as well, or at least the moment he stops being excited about the character.

And again, to me, he's just not good enough to be writing a major Gotham character as long as he has. Because very few writers are.

[Rise]

Ya, a character who stands on his own with a red bat symbol on his chest, and always supported with other long standing DC characters put in his book for Jason to stand next to. Starting business called rent-a-bat and pushing ideas like this Dark Trinity. But i guess since Jason is being moved away from Batman's shadow, as you guys so claim, Jason is the analog for WW in this Dark Trinity. Please. Moved him away from Bruce's shadow and develop him into his own man. Ya, sure .

Are you seriously implying that Jason can't stand on his own? Because yeah, sure he can't. Which is why his series called Red Hood and the Outlaws instead of just the Outlaws.

Btw, what do you say about the fact that nightwing has Robin, Batgirl and BATMAN as his supporting cast? Does this also means that nightwing can't stand on his own?

godisawesome: what's wrong with the fact that Lobdell is still excited about writing Jason? And why should he quit just because you don't like his writing?

Lobdell is one of the few writers who done justice to this character and actually seem to care about him which it's good enough for some of us here.

[godisawesome]

My complaint is that my standard for long term writing, at least on a book that primarily focuses on an ex-Robin, was set by Chuck Dixon and the writers like him. I expect A-Level work with villains, world building to a huge degree, and just more overall than I've seen Scott Lobdell do on a book. Lobdell's done a great job writing the character, but by and large there's been no escalation and evolution on par with what I expect out of my comics, 'cause I'm a really cheap comic book buyer and that part of how I determine to keep reading a book. I expect work on Jason to match the level of the guy who made Bane, King Snake, and Bludhaven while also spending time building subplots about Dick Grayson's landlady and Timothy Drake's classmates, or at least work on par with someone like Fabian Nicieza, the guy who managed to give a Deathstroke rip-off created by Rob Liefeld into the Merc with the Mouth, and who had Tim Drake dealing with running Neon Knights while eating hamburgers with Ives and making an alliance with Lonnie Machlin.

I want Lobdell to move on because, for all the crap that Tynion's run on RHATO got, and some of it was very deserved, at least it was different and trying to push in new directions.

[REAL]

And you say that I have no chill, Rise...

And oh my, what the heck this thread trun into? There's a someone who think that the other creators should ignore Lobdell's writing because it's "beneath" them, and other who think Lobdell should just quit because apparently he is important enough to prevent other writers from writing Jason. Like, do the two of you even realize what you actually write? I don't care about Lobdell beside his writing, but I don't think either of you would have liked if someone keep trashing you in the Internet.

If you two are truly interested in Jason and not satisfied with the way he's written, then just communicate with Lobdell and explain your problems with him instead of complaining about his writing here.

But if you already made up your mind that you don't like his writing and will not accept it, then simply get over it. It's not like Jason is a big favorite to either of you and I don't think that him not being written the way you want him to be is such a big lost to you.

[Rise]

lol, it's seems that neither of us have any chill

Hey Jan, the channel you recommend to me was seriously great. His videos of RH/A were really enjoyable and I like his way of narrating. Is he planning to do RHATO Rebirth? Because I really hope he does!

[Godlike13]

Some clarifications here:

* The Red Bat is a marketing move (and a pretty effective one at that) that was bound to come sooner or later. DC is after all business. While in-story is meant to symbolize Jason coming to terms with his past nut not for that he's letting that past control him.

* And what is the problem with Jason having a supporting cast or friends? Hell, the fact he's turned into more of a team player is a pretty notorious for his character.

* Rent A Bat was a great direction for him and one pretty unique within the DCU. Plus, you it was Roy's idea and again, is simply playing a bit with Batman's popularity in universe.

* The Dark Trinity is on DC entirely and yeah, he's playing the role of a dark counterpart to Batman because that is what fans demanded (some of them at least) Remember, the whole point of Rebirth was to brought back the characterization and direction people missed from the N52.

-It being a marketing move doesn't change that wearing a Bat symbol is not "standing on his own", or "being his own man", or make him "not in Batman shadow".
-Not a problem, but its also not Red Hood standing on his own. He's turned into more of a team player. Which is fine, but still the opposite of whats being claimed.
-Regardless if whether or not it was a great direction for him, playing with Batman's popularity in universe is not moving him away from Batman's shadow or developing him into his own man.
-Nevertheless him in the role of a dark counterpart to Batman is yet more of Jason leaning on Batman under Lobdell.

Are you seriously implying that Jason can't stand on his own? Because yeah, sure he can't. Which is why his series called Red Hood and the Outlaws instead of just the Outlaws.

Btw, what do you say about the fact that nightwing has Robin, Batgirl and BATMAN as his supporting cast? Does this also means that nightwing can't stand on his own?

No, thats not what im implying. Im just saying that under Lobdell Jason is not a character who has stood on his own, or has been moved away from Bruce's shadow. Under Lobdell Jason was turned into more of a team player, who doesn't do much standing on his own, and also leans on Batman in multiple ways.

And im not claiming that Nightwing is standing on his own or is moving away from Batman's shadow, as you say Nightwing is going to be using Robin, Batgirl and Batman. Its not something Nightwing fans can claim right now. Regardless if he can stand on his own or not.

And you say that I have no chill, Rise...

And oh my, what the heck this thread trun into? There's a someone who think that the other creators should ignore Lobdell's writing because it's "beneath" them, and other who think Lobdell should just quit because apparently he is important enough to prevent other writers from writing Jason. Like, do the two of you even realize what you actually write? I don't care about Lobdell beside his writing, but I don't think either of you would have liked if someone keep trashing you in the Internet.

If you two are truly interested in Jason and not satisfied with the way he's written, then just communicate with Lobdell and explain your problems with him instead of complaining about his writing here.

But if you already made up your mind that you don't like his writing and will not accept it, then simply get over it. It's not like Jason is a big favorite to either of you and I don't think that him not being written the way you want him to be is such a big lost to you.

Well i didn't say any of that, nor have i even really trashed Lobdell. I like Red Hood quite a bit actually, i just have no interest of more Red Hood under Lobdell. Which therein lies my problem. And honestly, i don't think im alone in that. But im certainly not gonna pester Lobdell because i don't like his work. Last time i checked though this was Jason Todd's appreciation's thread. I don't have to like Lobdell's work to like Jason Todd, and can voice my opinion and dissatisfaction on his current state.

[Rise]

RHATO is a team book. If Lobdell wasn't able to make Jason a team player, then it's mean he actually failed as a writer.

And did you actually read D.T post? You can't blame Lobdell for things that's out of his control. It's was pretty clear that Lobdell wanted Jason away from from the Bat-Family at the beginning of RHATO, but there's really nothing he can do because both DC and some of the fans wants him be part of them.

Jason under Lobdell can stand on his own when he is given the chance.

Well i didn't say any of that, nor have i even really trashed Lobdell. I like Red Hood quite a bit actually, i just have no interest of more Red Hood under Lobdell. Which therein lies my problem. And honestly, i don't think im alone in that. But im certainly not gonna pester Lobdell because i don't like his work. Last time i checked though this was Jason Todd's appreciation's thread. I don't have to like Lobdell's work to like Jason Todd, and can voice my opinion and dissatisfaction on his current state.

You actually did by calling his work mediocrity and mockery and not worth to be acknowledged by other writers.

And REAL didn't say that you have to like Lobdell to like Jason. He just saying that this discussion isn't getting us anywhere which is becoming more of aurgment than actual discussion. It's not up to us here to decided who write Jason, it's DC's decision. So, why you keep complaining about this here?

We can't you convince that Lobdell's writing isn't a bad and you can't convince us that it's bad. So, what the point of continuing this?

[godisawesome]

My apologies for the earlier rant...and my apologies for probably continuing the rant further down this post. Everything I say is subjective when it comes to Lobdell; I can't prove he's a bad writer, and the man's a professional writer, something I want to be someday, and I have to testify that he's a competent professional.

I do consider myself a Red Hood fan, and I know that I share some opinions with frequent posters on this threat even if I don't read the current book. And I'll admit, I'm incredibly biased against Lobdell; whenever I talk about the guy's writing, I need to admit that I'm going in looking for flaws.

But I'm that way because I've been burned by Lobdell's writing, for the first few months of the New 52, the only books I was consistently reading were his three jobs on RHATO, Teen Titans, and Superboy. The only one that gave me any initial concern was RHATO, because of the Starfire issue, which seemed to have been an execution problem as opposed to an conceptual one. And the first one I stopped reading regularly was RHATO, because while I could tell it was consistent and had good voices for the characters, I, personally, found it boring. I was sticking with the other two because, while I wasn't seeing his writing as being better there, I held out hope because my favorite characters are Kon-El, Tim Drake, Bart Allen, and Cassie Sandsmark.

And then Lobdell, or at least the formula of Lobdell and his higher editorial board, burned all of them in horrible, horrible writing, with bad concepts and bad execution, to such an extent that only one of those four seems to have a place in Rebirth, and it's in rehab in 'Tec.

And when I stopped back in RHATO now and again because of crossovers or because the idea sounded good, it still bored me. And when I read Tynion's run, and found that in spite of his clear inexperience I enjoyed it more than Lobdell's run, I was disappointed when Lobdell returned and dropped the book again. And so my opinion of Lobdell's skill came to be that it must at the very least not be towards my demographic. And then I look and I see that while the book's sales haven't tanked, their still below rivals they should be beating. So I conclude that Lobdell's writing has antagonized more readers like me. And then I wanted to grab the book for Reborth...and I saw that Lobdell was still writing it.

So, I've come to the conclusion that I will not read a character I want to read as long as Lobdell's writing him, and I feel that Lobdell still writing the book is limiting its possible readership.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I do agree it's an oversimplification to say that Lobdell is editorial's puppet, or that some of the moves they've made with Jason that seem derivative can also be linked to fan demand and market requirements...

...But...

...There are far to many features of even his work that guys like you love that seem dictated entirely by editorials desire. The intitial line-up of RHATO feels just as artificially manufactured as anything else in the New 52, and while Lobdell managed to make it work, that lack of execution on Starfire's...perception of the world around her and her sensuality in the first issue showcases that the combination of himself and his editors were blind to some major portrayal issues. The arrival of the unwanted, derided, and to several readers, sign-that-editorial-wants-this-crappy-character-to-be-the-next-big-thing Joker's Daughter to the series was also clearly an editorial mandate. Its the same thing that lead to Teen Titans featuring Lance, bane of DC fans who showed they had taste by staying away from such drivel in the 90's, or the endless tie-in notes, or having a crossover with Forever Evil that then slipped into the Replacement Superboy arc that was a cancer on that property, or coming back to the second volume to finish off the $#!+ he'd started by brining back Harvest on editorial demand to basically defame and bury Superboy in the middle of someone else's arc. And even on his Superman run, you could tell when he was given jobs like "shill the Wonder Woman romance hard" because it never felt natural, it felt like what a professional writer receiving marching orders would do.

You continue referencing Lobdell's TT but the situation with that book is nowhere close to RHATO or RH/A. Lobdell had relative freedom on those books whereas time passed TT was being ghost written by editorial. Lobdell actually wanted to bail from the book before the first year passed but doing so would mean losing RHATO and that was the book he loved to write.

With Superman he was also given some degree of freedom but there he was saddled with the duty of making crossovers for the whole line.

The new Rebirth line-up is clearly manufactured around a concept, and while I think Lobdell will probably suit your expectations and tastes there, my immediate reaction was "Huh, Bizarro's always kind of boring to me, and I'd hoped to see Artemis in something more...ambitious."

Because that's ultimately my opinion of Lobdell in top form: unambitious. I don't hear you guys praising excellent villains or clear cut character work; even someone as passionate and eloquent as you, Dark Tziitzimine, cites an entire run as subtly exploring that theme. What I hear you guys praise week in and week out is consistent, popcorn movie action and character interaction. that's a great thing to have, but it's not enough to match the quality that I expect out of this character.

Er no. I simply don't post that kind of analysis in here. If you want to see a more in depth analysis of Lobdell's work with Jason, I suggest you to look at the reviews I do for this page I began with issue 32 and I haven't stopped since.

And my opinion of him in poor form is pretty bad: the perfect instrument to show what happens when no one in creative cares about a property except for what shallow understanding of it they can briefly fail to combine with marketing tricks. And for the record, that doesn't put him in horrific company, just the company of other writers who I only want to read when they're on, which is generally a little rare. He's like Judd Winnick; when he's got an awesome story to tell, great!...But keep him the hell away from my characters if he's just doing what editorial wants. And unfortunately, I think that's part of the reason why Lobdell being a willing worker, as you put it, hurts his creative output. It would have been better for the brands of Teen Titans if he'd quit the book when editorial started screwing with him, and sadly, there's a part of me that feels it might be better for Red Hood is he quits now as well, or at least the moment he stops being excited about the character.

And again, to me, he's just not good enough to be writing a major Gotham character as long as he has. Because very few writers are.

Dude what

My complaint is that my standard for long term writing, at least on a book that primarily focuses on an ex-Robin, was set by Chuck Dixon and the writers like him. I expect A-Level work with villains, world building to a huge degree, and just more overall than I've seen Scott Lobdell do on a book. Lobdell's done a great job writing the character, but by and large there's been no escalation and evolution on par with what I expect out of my comics, 'cause I'm a really cheap comic book buyer and that part of how I determine to keep reading a book. I expect work on Jason to match the level of the guy who made Bane, King Snake, and Bludhaven while also spending time building subplots about Dick Grayson's landlady and Timothy Drake's classmates, or at least work on par with someone like Fabian Nicieza, the guy who managed to give a Deathstroke rip-off created by Rob Liefeld into the Merc with the Mouth, and who had Tim Drake dealing with running Neon Knights while eating hamburgers with Ives and making an alliance with Lonnie Machlin.

I want Lobdell to move on because, for all the crap that Tynion's run on RHATO got, and some of it was very deserved, at least it was different and trying to push in new directions.

I don't follow you. You want Lobdell to introduce lasting, powerful changes on Jason's status quo while also developing his character and yet you continue complaining aboiut him doing exactly that

Jason went from a loner that didn't trust anyone and kept everything bottled up inside him to someone that enjoys being in a team, he gave Jason an unique backstory with it own ensemble cast to drive Jason's character further, developed one of the best friendships DC had during the N52 with Roy, tried to expand his horizons by dating, embarked on a crusade to redeem his foes rather than killing them on sight, made amends with Bruce and had a strong brotherly bond with Tim where there was none previously.

From where I am standing, he accomplished exactly what you expected him to do. I'll grant you that his stories not always finished the way he would've liked but that is on editorial not on him. And he wasn't the only writer that suffered through that.

-It being a marketing move doesn't change that wearing a Bat symbol is not "standing on his own", or "being his own man", or make him "not in Batman shadow".
-Not a problem, but its also not Red Hood standing on his own. He's turned into more of a team player. Which is fine, but still the opposite of whats being claimed.
-Regardless if whether or not it was a great direction for him, playing with Batman's popularity in universe is not moving him away from Batman's shadow or developing him into his own man.
-Nevertheless him in the role of a dark counterpart to Batman is yet more of Jason leaning on Batman under Lobdell.

I don't get you either. All the stuff you're listing are things that only hold water from a marketing perspective. Yeah, DC is taking advantage of Batman's popularity to promote Jason but that is never a factor within the story itself. When Jason received his costume with the Red Bat, it was explicitly told he shoudln't be defined by what he wears or the people on his past. The only time the Red Bat was given relevance was with Rent A Bat, and that was Lobdell using some metacommentary to build his plot.

If I'm understanding right your point, you're implying that Jason can't be his own man because he's not working alone. If that is your intention, I'm sorry but that is a pretty dumb posture. The only orders he's following are his, the choices he makes are his alone. How is that not being his own man? Hell, Dick during his tenure as Agent 37 was more under Bruce's shadow than ever.

So? Whether Lobdell acknowledged the info or not wouldn't made it stop existing. But by using it, he was able to develop further the nature of Jason's relationship with Roy and offering us an insight on Roy's mind.

Have you read the book or do you know Lobdell's pitch? Because so the information released so far hasn't offered clear insight on Jason's characterization, goals or motivation within the book.

No, thats not what im implying. Im just saying that under Lobdell Jason is not a character who has stood on his own, or has has been moved away from Bruce's shadow. Lobdell has leaned heavily on Batman, and has turned Jason into more of a team player.

How so? Neither Bruce nor Gotham were a real element on RHATO's first seven issues, the only direct connection to it came when the book was pulled into the NoO crossover. Lobdell does use a lot Jason's connection with the Joker but well, they are intrinsically connected and you can't really write an ongoing story with Jason without referencing that connection some way or another. Lobdell hasn't pitted Jason against many Batman rogues either, so I don't follow your logic here.

Last time i checked though this was Jason Todd's appreciation's thread. I don't have to like Lobdell's work to like Jason Todd, and can voice my opinion and dissatisfaction on his current state.

Indeed but it would certainly help if you were so kind to properly elaborate your opinions like godisawesome is doing so we could have a productive discussion.

[Lhynn]

Lodbells writing is about dumb broad strokes that never really satisfy the reader, but that can be summed up as something decent as a concept. He writes horribly, but if you just take a step back it doesnt look that bad.

[Godlike13]

I don't get you either. All the stuff you're listing are things that only hold water from a marketing perspective. Yeah, DC is taking advantage of Batman's popularity to promote Jason but that is never a factor within the story itself. When Jason received his costume with the Red Bat, it was explicitly told he shoudln't be defined by what he wears or the people on his past. The only time the Red Bat was given relevance was with Rent A Bat, and that was Lobdell using some metacommentary to build his plot.

If I'm understanding right your point, you're implying that Jason can't be his own man because he's not working alone. If that is your intention, I'm sorry but that is a pretty dumb posture. The only orders he's following are his, the choices he makes are his alone. How is that not being his own man? Hell, Dick during his tenure as Agent 37 was more under Bruce's shadow than ever.

So? Whether Lobdell acknowledged the info or not wouldn't made it stop existing. But by using it, he was able to develop further the nature of Jason's relationship with Roy and offering us an insight on Roy's mind.

Have you read the book or do you know Lobdell's pitch? Because so the information released so far hasn't offered clear insight on Jason's characterization, goals or motivation within the book.

-Rent at "Bat" and this upcoming "dark trinity" that Jason is going play a dark counterpart to Batman is not only marketing, but actual story and character developments introduced by Lobdell.
-Im implying that Jason isn't really his own man when he wears a Batman's symbol on his chest, and "plays" with Batman's popularity whenever its convenient, and im implying that Jason has done very little standing on his own when he's been partnered up and doesn't actually do much standing on his own (im not saying that Jason can't, im just saying that he isn't). And Ive seen him follow plenty of orders, not just from Batman, but even from Dick. He's done more following since he's been with Lobdell than he has since he was Robin. And Dick already went through his be his own man phase. Dick can't get away from Batman's shadow, but im not claiming that Dick's moved away from Batman's shadow. Not when he is continuously pulled back like he is, and has to deal with things like B&R:E.
-And by using it it put him directly in "Batman's shadow" and does the opposite of move him away from it.
-They say “Dark Trinity” quite a bit. Unless im wrong and Jason the dark counter part to Wonder Woman.

How so? Neither Bruce nor Gotham were a real element on RHATO's first seven issues, the only direct connection to it came when the book was pulled into the NoO crossover. Lobdell does use a lot Jason's connection with the Joker but well, they are intrinsically connected and you can't really write an ongoing story with Jason without referencing that connection some way or another. Lobdell hasn't pitted Jason against many Batman rogues either, so I don't follow your logic here.

Again, being partnered with Roy and Starfire, and now partnered with Bizzaro and Artemis, Bat symbol on chest, Rent a "Bat", "Dark Trinity", ect. For a character that was claimed to stand on his own, he's not not been partnered up with other establish DC characters, and for a character that has moved away from Batman shadow he more connected to Batman, "plays" with Batman's popularity, and works with him more than he has since he was Robin.

Indeed but it would certainly help if you were so kind to properly elaborate your opinions like godisawesome is doing so we could have a productive discussion.

I have, multiple times, and we have had that conversation multiple times.

[godisawesome]

Dark_Tzitzimine, this next part mostly just seeks to clarify the part of my post you quoted and said "Dude What" to:

You need to understand that I see Lobdell's best, most consistent work on RHATO and RH/A as being solid 3 star work on what should be a consistent 4 star book, since it's a Bat-title in all but editorial classification. I think it shows the difference in performance expectations and atmosphere between the Bat-editorial board and the Super-editorial board; at the Batboard, even at its most interfering, there was pressure to shake up and change creative on a book if it was viewed as underperforming its expectations, while the Superman board seemed to see more desperation for even middling success, and there seemed to be a prioritizing of being willing to follow editorial dictates and marketing pitches over actual skill. And plenty of writers cut their teeth well enough on Batman books to move to their own projects because that's more financially beneficial.

And since I don't perceive Lobdell as being a better writer than Kyle Higgins, Gail Simone, Genevieve Valentine, or John Layman, I think him coming back to and staying on a book Longer than any of them speaks to stagnation in quality rather than high standards. I think he only keeps the writing job because it's a decent performing book for a chaotic editorial board, and he would have been either booted or forced to get more ambitious under the Batman board. So I think the combination of his loyalty to his superiors and the resulting quality of his writing is limiting Jason Todd as a character.

And the Judd Winick comparison really wasn't that clear, and I'll admit, the association I have between the two guys isn't that flattering. I think they both run hot and cold and have an unfortunate tendency to play editorial's hatchet men on my favorite characters. I think that Lobdell will write more "good" stories than Winick, while Winick has "Under The Red Hood" which is a "great" single story that far surpasses any of Lobdell's work, and I think both men have an unfortunate tendency towards subpar writing if they aren't fully engaged. Both misread their audience and damaged their runs on RHATO and Catwoman in the early days by going for a "sex sells" thing in their #1s, though Lobdell handled that problem far more gracefully than Winick. Winick has the stupidity of Graduation Day, and Lobdell has the stain of Teen Titans, both of which featured horrific writing that at time seemed perfunctory in its plodding terribleness.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

-Rent at "Bat" and this upcoming "dark trinity" that Jason is going play a dark counterpart to Batman is not only marketing, but actual story and character developments introduced by Lobdell.
-Im implying that Jason isn't really his own man when he wears a Batman's symbol on his chest, and "plays" with Batman's popularity whenever its convenient, and im implying that Jason has done very little standing on his own when he's been partnered up and doesn't actually do much standing on his own (im not saying that Jason can't, im just saying that he isn't). And Ive seen him follow plenty of orders, not just from Batman, but even from Dick. He's done more following since he's been with Lobdell than he has since he was Robin. And Dick already went through his be his own man phase. Dick can't get away from Batman's shadow, but im not claiming that Dick's moved away from Batman's shadow. Not when he is continuously pulled back like he is, and has to deal with things like B&R:E.
-And by using it it put him directly in "Batman's shadow" and does the opposite of move him away from it.
-They say “Dark Trinity” quite a bit. Unless im wrong and Jason the dark counter part to Wonder Woman.

Again, being partnered with Roy and Starfire, and now partnered with Bizzaro and Artemis, Bat symbol on chest, Rent a "Bat", "Dark Trinity", ect. For a character that was claimed to stand on his own, he's not not been partnered up with other establish DC characters, and for a character that has moved away from Batman shadow he more connected to Batman, "plays" with Batman's popularity, and works with him more than he has since he was Robin.

I have, multiple times, and we have had that conversation multiple times.

You continue citing things that happen at editorial level but not specific passages of Lobdell's run. Let's take the bit about Jason following orders for example. Under Lobdell he has met Bruce two times: RHATO's issue 18 and RH/A issue 6. In neither of those meeting he received and order from Bruce. Jason got involved on the Night of Owls because Tim asked him for help and he wasn't even properly briefed on the nature of the situation. Dick has only showed once, in RHATO's issue 17 where at best he warned Jason about taking good care of Kori. Where has been Jason taking orders? You mean Eternal/B&R E? That wasn't Lobdell. Robin War? King. Robin Reborn? Tomasi. Doomed, Truth? Pak. All of them things that were beyond Lobdell's control and that for the most part were actually at odds with his characterization of Jason.

Continuing with Lobdell's work. How does Jason plays with Batman's popularity? He was pretty upset at Roy using him to sell the Rent A Bat idea, the only member of the bat family he has asked for help is Tim.

And Nightwing's first arc is called "Better than Batman", your point being?

Dark_Tzitzimine, this next part mostly just seeks to clarify the part of my post you quoted and said "Dude What" to:

You need to understand that I see Lobdell's best, most consistent work on RHATO and RH/A as being solid 3 star work on what should be a consistent 4 star book, since it's a Bat-title in all but editorial classification. I think it shows the difference in performance expectations and atmosphere between the Bat-editorial board and the Super-editorial board; at the Batboard, even at its most interfering, there was pressure to shake up and change creative on a book if it was viewed as underperforming its expectations, while the Superman board seemed to see more desperation for even middling success, and there seemed to be a prioritizing of being willing to follow editorial dictates and marketing pitches over actual skill. And plenty of writers cut their teeth well enough on Batman books to move to their own projects because that's more financially beneficial.

And since I don't perceive Lobdell as being a better writer than Kyle Higgins, Gail Simone, Genevieve Valentine, or John Layman, I think him coming back to and staying on a book Longer than any of them speaks to stagnation in quality rather than high standards. I think he only keeps the writing job because it's a decent performing book for a chaotic editorial board, and he would have been either booted or forced to get more ambitious under the Batman board. So I think the combination of his loyalty to his superiors and the resulting quality of his writing is limiting Jason Todd as a character.

We're getting into entirely subjective matters here. You see the Batman offices as the example to follow of creativity whereas I've found every crossover to come from there to be mediocre at best and the only book I think is good in the last year was Robin: SOB. So we'll have to agree to disagree here.

And the Judd Winick comparison really wasn't that clear, and I'll admit, the association I have between the two guys isn't that flattering. I think they both run hot and cold and have an unfortunate tendency to play editorial's hatchet men on my favorite characters. I think that Lobdell will write more "good" stories than Winick, while Winick has "Under The Red Hood" which is a "great" single story that far surpasses any of Lobdell's work, and I think both men have an unfortunate tendency towards subpar writing if they aren't fully engaged. Both misread their audience and damaged their runs on RHATO and Catwoman in the early days by going for a "sex sells" thing in their #1s, though Lobdell handled that problem far more gracefully than Winick. Winick has the stupidity of Graduation Day, and Lobdell has the stain of Teen Titans, both of which featured horrific writing that at time seemed perfunctory in its plodding terribleness.

Having read UTRH many, many times I can confidently say the animated version is the only good version. And that is because Winnick fixed the biggest flaws the original story had and was allowed more creative freedom. Being the story that brought Jason back makes it very important but I don't believe is THE Jason story anymore.

Oh and Lobdell never went for a "sex sells" approach with Starfire. He deconstructed her character by putting her in the lowest point she had ever been and the rebuild her from the ground up.

[G-Potion]

Jason can't really afford to be subtle or mellow, his basic character is not unique or distinct enough for it. A subtle or mellow Jason is just good for standing in the background and providing whole lot of nothing. There is no point to that Jason. When Jason came back he was this controversial character that sparked actual conversation and brought up interesting questions. What he did, and him disagreeing with Batman, made him interesting and helped him to actually stand out. Normalcy, or Jason wanting to be normal is just boring, and makes for a boring Jason. Makes for a guy that can pop up and just stand in the background of Bat events.

What is his basic character? How the hell does being mellow translate to not disagree with Batman anymore? You complained about a boring Jason yet you seem to have an idea that Jason should only be a certain thing with no room to change.

-Rent at "Bat" and this upcoming "dark trinity" that Jason is going play a dark counterpart to Batman is not only marketing, but actual story and character developments introduced by Lobdell.
-Im implying that Jason isn't really his own man when he wears a Batman's symbol on his chest, and "plays" with Batman's popularity whenever its convenient, and im implying that Jason has done very little standing on his own when he's been partnered up and doesn't actually do much standing on his own (im not saying that Jason can't, im just saying that he isn't). And Ive seen him follow plenty of orders, not just from Batman, but even from Dick. He's done more following since he's been with Lobdell than he has since he was Robin. And Dick already went through his be his own man phase. Dick can't get away from Batman's shadow, but im not claiming that Dick's moved away from Batman's shadow. Not when he is continuously pulled back like he is, and has to deal with things like B&R:E.
-And by using it it put him directly in "Batman's shadow" and does the opposite of move him away from it.
-They say “Dark Trinity” quite a bit. Unless im wrong and Jason the dark counter part to Wonder Woman.

Jason was also pull backed by these crossovers so why does it sound like you defended Dick but attacked Jason for the same thing? I don't think many of us here are praising his appearances in BRE and RW. What happened in RHATO and R/A was Jason having character development outside of Batman's influence, whether he wears the bat or not (like Dark said, it's a marketing choice) Batman plays a minimum role in this. Also following orders doesn't necessarily mean he's not his own person? Him letting Roy run things was a conscious decision he made, as he values their friendship as well as Roy's need. Jason under Lobdell doesn't think highly of leadership, which has been stated a few times. He doesn't tell Roy what to do, but he does decide to do things his way when it really counts (taking in JD was the start of it).