Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Aioros22]

When did he took down gangs in the new 52? When it come to surviving on the streets I have the impression that the original version was better at it despite being much younger..

Tastes will vary. In the original origin the only goons that we saw initially were Ma`s at her school.

In the pre-Rebirth origin we see Jason being part of a street gang and setting himself apart due to his moral code and sheer resourcefullness. IIRC, he took down at least one of the gang members that I recall, I think to save someone, let alone what he does later with Talia`s involvement which is more op than what Dick and Barbara have done before meeting Bruce. New52 Tim may be an expection but I`ll adress that up below.

And second half of his old origin also showed him solve case (in the end) which was sofar also not shown in the new 52.

The connection with Two Face? He was already with Bruce by then.

Learing this magic punch and in general learnig martial arts from Kung-Fu by just watching them was a good idea, but sofar it was never brought up again.

The magical punch may have not, but his learning MA has.

The thing is Jason is a character that was really inconsistently written in the past, and in some cases was even said to be just a dumb brute, clearly defining, showing and spelling out what he is good in would help him at this point much more than making just some subtle hints that are ignored by the next writer.

Only post death writers took the time to define him in those terms. Any origin of Jason actually shows otherwise. Way I see you have to really go with the bad exemples like certain spots in Eternal to make that kind of case, but that isn`t the majority of writers or stories.

I mean look at Tim he is not only seen as the smartest Robin because of his showing, but because we are blatantly told it in every second issue, and by nearly every character. That might not be the most elegant way of writing but is a pretty effective way to give a character a reputation.

I`ll remind you again that only the New52 origin went that route and it`s mostly disliked by his fanbase.

he had the acrobatic skills and the Body reading already before he met Bruce.

I must have forgotten about it. It only pops up when he`s using an especific tech called Hypno. Seems like a case of telling it, not showing it.

[Lhynn]

I`ll remind you again that only the New52 origin went that route and it`s mostly disliked by his fanbase.

Hated, and it made him look like more of an idiot because he couldnt deliver.

[Aioros22]

I want him just presented as someone who is as good as the other Robins (and Batgirls)

Mostly, he is. I get what you`re saying because it`s easier for a number of writers to prop Grayson over Jason because he`s the original and in certain minds, "the" Robin, but every origin Jason`s had they`ve told us about the characteristics that we all came to enjoy about the character. It`s simply that he`s also got more demons (Jung called it "The Shadow" than any well adjusted Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon or Tim Drake.

I get that in your view a set of rules about his qualities and what he can or not do would make eveyone`s life easier, sort of like a rpg came stats. But storytelling is more fluid than that- in a way so are the games - you win and lose qualities until the game ends.

I repeat myself alot but I think balance is usually the winner in working great characters and they haven`t done a bad job at all to a character that was in limbo for decades. A little patience..that and not expecting every writer to get his voice pat down or write him well or even enjoying it so. It works for every character. For every showing like beating Cass on points on her game you have a showing like, I dunno, looking like a dumbo against Bane. For every character moment like impressing Artemis, Bruce or Black Mask and connecting with Bizarro you have...I dunno, a less confidente guy tellng a girl he previously rejected that he`s not Dick Grayson, mop mop. Some writers will always take the easier route for a narrative cliché because reasons.

You kind of need to accept that Jason will require time to building and pushing set his own star up and that bad stories/showings are naturally part of every character`s life.

[Aahz]

Here thats from his his original origin, and imo way more impressive that anything we saw him sofar do in the new 52 pre meeting Batman (imo including the magical punch issue).

[Aioros22]

I love the sequence, but alas if you`re talking op(ness) and what looks more impressive, I`ll take standing your moral guns over your crazy pals at a gang and learning a magical punch on the go. I`ll take either of them tho, because it`s more impressive physically than anything Tim or Grayson first did if you`re talking of classic origins.

This is what the argument looks to me. Basically picking one good example over another.

[Aahz]

Tastes will vary. In the original origin the only goons that we saw initially were Ma`s at her school.

His new origin stories (RHatO isn't really an origin story) had no goons, and taking out 3 that a far bigger then him (and little bit later a single one with a gun) at one is quite feat.

The connection with Two Face? He was already with Bruce by then.

But in the new 52 safar we see him as Robin either screwing up or beeing out of control.

The magical punch may have not, but his learning MA has.

The ability to learn after just seeing it once, was never mentioned again afaik.

I`ll remind you again that only the New52 origin went that route and it`s mostly disliked by his fanbase.

The biggest complains is that they dropped the connection with Dick and had him nearly kill his parents. Him being a genius is afaik mostly accepted by everyone.

I must have forgotten about it. It only pops up when he`s using an especific tech called Hypno. Seems like a case of telling it, not showing it.

It was used quite often during Higgins run. And is still mentioned once in a while.

[Aahz]

Mostly, he is. I get what you`re saying because it`s easier for a number of writers to prop Grayson over Jason because he`s the original and in certain minds, "the" Robin, but every origin Jason`s had they`ve told us about the characteristics that we all came to enjoy about the character. It`s simply that he`s also got more demons (Jung called it "The Shadow" than any well adjusted Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon or Tim Drake.

In the last cross overs basically every one got proped over him. He got more demons, but that means that the writers also need to show the bright sides to balance it out. But the writers seem very hesitate to do it, when he is around the rest of the family.

You kind of need to accept that Jason will require time to building and pushing set his own star up and that bad stories/showings are naturally part of every character`s life.

I don't have the feeling that he gets the same push everybody else gets, and thats now in a phase where he is still quite new back in the family and that will probably define his role in the family on the long run quite dangerous.
I have at least not the feeling that the writers out side of his own series put much effort in building him up, more on the contrary.

[Aioros22]

In the last cross overs basically every one got proped over him. He got more demons, but that means that the writers also need to show the bright sides to balance it out. But the writers seem very hesitate to do it, when he is around the rest of the family.

I don't have the feeling that he gets the same push everybody else gets, and thats now in a phase where he is still quite new back in the family and that will probably define his role in the family on the long run quite dangerous. I have at least not the feeling that the writers out side of his own series put much effort in building him up, more on the contrary.

That takes time. He was there first than many but he`s been around less than others. The Eternals were crap, but there were some nice moments where he stole the show. Maybe less than Grayson or Tim sure but a good deal of writers gravitate towards them by being the nice boys. But you gotta understand that it comes from a place and doesn`t change overnight.

All I am saying is, without losing the goal of upping his profile and thus be critical of some things, we should not lose the fact we should be grateful of what good we`ve had. Sometimes that good has been better than what others fanbase have had.

[TooFlyToFail]

God no. I want a relatable kid from the streets not a whinier Anakin Skywalker.

But seriously, I don't understand that fixation for having Jason be an utter badass that is making Bruce a favor for becoming Robin. Tynion did that during his run and was an utter disaster that harmed the book irremediably. Lobdell's approach of making human and fallible is better way to handle him since it makes the reader invested on him. God knows DC has too many "I'm the best because I'm the protagonist" characters already.

Well we know he's not the best, but having him be the most versatile, or having a natural aptitude for violence, wasn't what made Tynion's arc suck. It was the writing.

You sound like Star Wars fans complaining that the politics is one of the main reasons the Prequels sucked, and didn't want it in the new movies. That how we got a bare bones, by the number movie.

Besides, why would Bruce NOT try to get extraordinary kids for his crusade? He'd only get kids who have the potential to surpass him.

[Aahz]

I get that in your view a set of rules about his qualities and what he can or not do would make eveyone`s life easier, sort of like a rpg came stats. But storytelling is more fluid than that- in a way so are the games - you win and lose qualities until the game ends.

Even in rps you can sometimes loose agianst a weaker opponent. But even in rpgs (I'm taking about classic pan and paper here), the game master has somehow to keep a balance between the charcters and design his plots in a way that every player can contribute something with his character, and gets his part of the spotlight or it just not fun for the players. And thats much easier if a characters can do something that the others can't, or is among the top fighters of the group.

[Aahz]

Besides, why would Bruce NOT try to get extraordinary kids for his crusade? He'd only get kids who have the potential to surpass him.

Almost every other Batfamily member has gotten extraordinary traits, and especially in the last years the writers started to really emphasise them (just look for example how often Barbara's Eidetic memory is now used in her series) or tell us repeatedly how special these characters are (especially Dick).
In Jasons is the only character where I don't really see a real direction or any consistency.

[Rise]

RED HOOD AND THE OUTLAWS #7
Written by SCOTT LOBDELL • Art by guest artist MIRKO CLARK • Cover by GIUSEPPE CAMUNCOLI and CAM SMITH • Variant cover by MATTEO SCALERA
“how do you solve a problem like Bizarro?”! Now that Black Mask is defeated, Artemis continues her quest for the Bow of Ra—a weapon of immense power. Meanwhile, Jason is dealing with an immense power of his own—Bizarro. What’s to be done about such a volatile creature…and is he too dangerous to be kept alive?
On sale FEBRUARY 8 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

Is that "Of Mice and Men" reference I'm seeing here?

I'm glad that Lobdell isn't starting a new arc immediately and giving us a breather issue. Also, it's looks like Artemis hasn't joined Jason yet.

[Aioros22]

Almost every other Batfamily member has gotten extraordinary traits, and especially in the last years the writers started to really emphasise them (just look for example how often Barbara's Eidetic memory is now used in her series) or tell us repeatedly how special these characters are (especially Dick).
In Jasons is the only character where I don't really see a real direction or any consistency.

That last line is misleading as heck. Regardless, I feel that the origins, since that`s what this is about, lay out extraordinary traits on itself. We don`t agree on whether they are point out ad naseum, I know. You just mentioned Barbara`s photographic memory but so what? She doesn`t have Jason`s guts. She doesn`t learn techniques or is as adept in the figthing department as Jason is on a general rule. She doesn`t have his drive or willpower. Nobody in the family does, save Bruce.

Dick having a sort of "body reading ability" has handled him nothing the few times it`s been mentioned. Hypnos is tech. Jason OTOH matches a character best known for such ability and fights a peer on his, all blind.

Jason may indeed be more extraordinary raw than the others, but that doesn`t make him less extraordinary. And even if it did - which I don`t believe it does - but even if it did, the fact alone that he can match up with the others trought sheer hardwork instead of some fancy OP ability that comes out a blue moon, is extraordinary on itself. You require above standard focus and discipline to do that.

[Aioros22]

Is that "Of Mice and Men" reference I'm seeing here?

I'm glad that Lobdell isn't starting a new arc immediately and giving us a breather issue. Also, it's looks like Artemis hasn't joined Jason yet.

I never read the book before (my ever ongoing ignorance, thank the stars) but now that I read about it a tad, yeah I can see the vibe.

[Aahz]

That last line is misleading as heck. Regardless, I feel that the origins, since that`s what this is about, lay out extraordinary traits on itself. We don`t agree on whether they are point out ad naseum, I know. You just mentioned Barbara`s photographic memory but so what? She doesn`t have Jason`s guts. She doesn`t learn techniques or is as adept in the figthing department as Jason is on a general rule. She doesn`t have his drive or willpower. Nobody in the family does, save Bruce.

Dick having a sort of "body reading ability" has handled him nothing the few times it`s been mentioned. Hypnos is tech. Jason OTOH matches a character best known for such ability and fights a peer on his, all blind.

Jason may indeed be more extraordinary raw than the others, but that doesn`t make him less extraordinary. And even if it did - which I don`t believe it does - but even if it did, the fact alone that he can match up with the others trought sheer hardwork instead of some fancy OP ability that comes out a blue moon, is extraordinary on itself. You require above standard focus and discipline to do that.

But the problem with Jasons abilities is that they come up in one single comic and are never used again. And him beeing the superior fighter was also (appart from the DotF tie in) never really acknowledged (which could have been done realtivly easily in his team ups with Tim and Barabra in the Eternals). He gets more beaten up than any other character (even in his own book).

But thats not just a problem with the orgin stories (more in general with the way how he is handled). From the origins I manly expect some contra point to the "Jason was as Robin only rage and screwed up all the time" thing. And that is imo even in Lobdells work missing. "Last Crusade" showed it much better.