Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Aioros22]

Loedbell`s Jason as Robin just acnowledged how good of a student he was. Fast and high level learner. He did the same with him under Ducra and the Al Caste. Yes, he`s mention Jason as saying his younger days were met with rage before but I didn`t take that as intentionally setting him off as the screw up but merely to compare his later growth. It was his Robin gig that in the end set that difference. One needs to remind however that in previous volumes, Loedbell barely touched upon Jason`s Robin days, save a memory or a mention here and there and none of it was in any way shown in a negative light. I think there`s balance in that.

The superior figther thing is IMO a bonus point. It`s nice if it`s adressed but things like taking down Shiva and matching Cass made him look much better than Dick. You had Tim fanboying over Jason`s abilities in the DOTF tie in. Despite the rushed ending of R:W, you had Damian and everyone else fawn at how smooth both Jason and Tim staged the whole fight to get all of them free. Despite being more protected than everyone else and being the youngest included, Damian is the one who gets routinaly (in Bat books at least) called the least capable figther. Bruce himself has told him so when directly comparing his level with the other former Robins. Jason, Tim and Dick were all kind of embarassed when Damian issued his challenges and any points he got on Tim and Jay were stolen by pushing especific emotional buttons so he could try to prove they weren`t much different than him. Then he ran off. Smart, but that`s about it.

But I get it, you want something more palpable. Something more eye catching, more definite, like in Last Crusade where Jason in training was directly compared (and well!) with the man himself, let alone the former protege.

[JasonTodd428]

[B]But the problem with Jasons abilities is that they come up in one single comic and are never used again. And him beeing the superior fighter was also (appart from the DotF tie in) never really acknowledged (which could have been done realtivly easily in his team ups with Tim and Barabra in the Eternals). He gets more beaten up than any other character (even in his own book).

Frankly, I think it's a case of other writers not really knowing what to do with this version of the character because that old "Jason is a screw-up" mentality keeps staying their hand. Also IMO the bolded is more a factor of the style in which Jason fights rather than a comment on his skills. He's more of a close quarters combatant then most of the others, despite his tendency to use ranged weapons like guns, so of course he's going to take more hits and get 'beat up' more so than they do. He's more 'hands on' (or maybe 'fists on' is better) about fighting than the others because of his life as a street kid while the others are, in general, a bit more evasive in combat, especially Dick who tends to be in almost constant motion when he fights.

But thats not just a problem with the orgin stories (more in general with the way how he is handled). From the origins I manly expect some contra point to the "Jason was as Robin only rage and screwed up all the time" thing. And that is imo even in Lobdells work missing. "Last Crusade" showed it much better.

In my opinion Lobdell has been making a counter point to the old "Jason was a 'bad Robin' and a 'screw-up' belief the whole time and, to me, his work with the character has been all about disproving that belief. It's not his fault other writers can't seem to grasp what he's getting at because they are more used to seeing Jason as "the screw-up". Let's not forget that it was writers back in the day that started and developed the "Jason died because he was a 'bad Robin' who screwed up" that has lead to later writers and even fans to believe that nonsense. He made a mistake sure but it had nothing to do with his being a 'screw up' and everything to do with wanting to protect his birth mother from what he perceived as someone who wanted to blackmail her due to her past. He even tried to protect her from the bomb even after she betrayed him to Joker out of a need to do so. His only mistake was trusting her in the first place and until they made the decision to kill him off he was not even being portrayed as being all that bad of a Robin either.

[Aioros22]

"Jason the screwup" is a blaming the victim cloth that was drapped around the caracter by some post death writers - up until he returned more or less, because it was easy and fit the contrast with whoever came afterwards. It was never something that came across in his actual stories because, as noted, every Robin has screwed up. But it fit the mold of what the office wanted.

As for his figthing pedigree, I don`t think he gets beat up (and I find the expression "taken down" much more accurate) more than any others if you count all encounters. There are some issues like in Eternal and R:War where he comes across as a brawler over stye but those are issues in less than stellar stories, not general portraits. Don`t take this the wrong way folks, but I feel some fans still cling too much on the fear of writers fudging up with Jason as they have for a period of time and then fail to appreciate or see the good things done with the character since he came back. It`s a sorta victim syndrome and we colectivaly need to move beyond that.

We`re not alone of course, the other fanbases deal with similar issues, albeigh slightly different.

[Aahz]

In my opinion Lobdell has been making a counter point to the old "Jason was a 'bad Robin' and a 'screw-up' belief the whole time and, to me, his work with the character has been all about disproving that belief.

If I look at his flashbacks to Jasons time as Robin it doesn't seem like that. Ok they are usually narrated by Jason, but the flashback emphasise mostly the bad stuff. Ok if you have a broader knowledge of Batman comics, you know that this wasn't all and the others had their screw-ups as well, but on their own the flashbacks are more enforcing the "screw-up myth" than debunking it.

Btw. I would really like to get a full length new 52 strory from Jasons tome as Robin (not narrated by him self) which would have space for a more balanced portrait, but that seems unfortunately something only Dick gets.

[Aioros22]

How much was it bad stuff? You had the memory that was given in RATHO#3 (IIRC) in the first volume, but that memory wasn`t negative or bad by any means. You mention it well, you need to take in account the context of what Jason is going throught at the moment. What was he feeling to let go that good memory? Detachment. That`s how the first RATHO actually starts. Then you have one of reconciliation right there in Rebirth, with the smiling picture, but this one isn`t left out, it`s shown, it`s reinforced by Jason`s narration that Red Hood may not be how Batman openly operates but he is what he needs sometimes, like it or not.

I do agree on the note you touch about new generations meeting Jason. With so little of him as Robin and some of it being connected (it`s inevitable) with his later path, there could be a risk of new readers being too acostumed with that old label, but I think that extreme isn`t necessarily real. The former RHAA ends with a Robin Jason and Roy adventure that bridges animated nostalgia and is pretty fun with Robin saving a new friend. So when you say that there should be a few more stories that highlight moments like that I can only agree. In this case some more is only good.

[Aioros22]

On that note, my biggest beef with Eternal thus far hasn`t been showings or who takes down who, or even (shudder) character work but the absolute waste of Deacon Blackfire and a chance to use "The Cult" as part of Jason`s early backstory. Which incidently, now with Rebirth is possible again

[JasonTodd428]

"Jason the screwup" is a blaming the victim cloth that was drapped around the caracter by some post death writers - up until he returned more or less, because it was easy and fit the contrast with whoever came afterwards. It was never something that came across in his actual stories because, as noted, every Robin has screwed up. But it fit the mold of what the office wanted.

As for his figthing pedigree, I don`t think he gets beat up (and I find the expression "taken down" much more accurate) more than any others if you count all encounters. There are some issues like in Eternal and R:War where he comes across as a brawler over stye but those are issues in less than stellar stories, not general portraits. Don`t take this the wrong way folks, but I feel some fans still cling too much on the fear of writers fudging up with Jason as they have for a period of time and then fail to appreciate or see the good things done with the character since he came back. It`s a sorta victim syndrome and we colectivaly need to move beyond that.

We`re not alone of course, the other fanbases deal with similar issues, albeigh slightly different.

"Taken down" is a better way to phase that for certain. And I agree that fans and writers are stuck in that mentality and that we all need to move beyond it. It would help though if writers outside of Lobdell would do something to push the character beyond that. Having said that though I simply think they don't really know how to think of him any other way, particularly if they grew up reading comics in the era of "Jason Todd the screw-up". Even as late as just before the reboot that idea was still very prevalent whenever his character was used or mentioned. Both fans and writers have been conditioned to see Jason in that way and it's very hard to break through that and to see him outside of that context.

If I look at his flashbacks to Jasons time as Robin it doesn't seem like that. Ok they are usually narrated by Jason, but the flashback emphasise mostly the bad stuff. Ok if you have a broader knowledge of Batman comics, you know that this wasn't all and the others had their screw-ups as well, but on their own the flashbacks are more enforcing the "screw-up myth" than debunking it.

It's Jason's spin on them that makes it seem that way because Jason doesn't see himself in a good light to begin with and I don't see them as showing "only the bad stuff". He has self esteem issues and nowhere is that shown more clearly than in the last issue of Red Hood/Arsenal. He tells Roy that he can never be the hero that Roy thinks he can be but throughout that series and the previous one he has been shown to be exactly that. A hero with a moral code that, while it isn't Batman's, is still just as strong and noble. Lobdell has doing this over the course of the previous two series. He has Jason narrate something with that slant but then he turns around and shows us, through Jason's actions in whatever the current story, is that Jason is not the "screw-up" he thinks he is.

Btw. I would really like to get a full length new 52 strory from Jasons tome as Robin (not narrated by him self) which would have space for a more balanced portrait, but that seems unfortunately something only Dick gets.

I agree though that it would be interesting to see how someone outside of Jason would view his time as Robin. I'd love to see a story or two that delve into Jason's N52 time as Robin from the point of view of Bruce or Dick. I also think it would be interesting to see how Alfred viewed Jason at that time. There have been things touched on in flashbacks but those flashback being told through Jason's eyes are likely a bit skewed because of how he views himself.

[Aioros22]

"Taken down" is a better way to phase that for certain. And I agree that fans and writers are stuck in that mentality and that we all need to move beyond it. It would help though if writers outside of Lobdell would do something to push the character beyond that. Having said that though I simply think they don't really know how to think of him any other way, particularly if they grew up reading comics in the era of "Jason Todd the screw-up". Even as late as just before the reboot that idea was still very prevalent whenever his character was used or mentioned. Both fans and writers have been conditioned to see Jason in that way and it's very hard to break through that and to see him outside of that context.

Right, before the reboot is understandable because simply put, Jason`s comeback is still fairly recent in terms of franchise history. Some writers dealt Jason with respect, like Alan Grant and a few others, but the prevelance of him being the screwup tend to fit the easy mold for the cautionary tale. I actually think that the label was more prominent when Tim was already set as Robin, instead of during that term because you couldn`t have him looking up at Jason as the sacrifise story while the body was still warm.

As soon Tim was set in the role, you started to see those mentions because the cautionary tale became more important for the further maturity withn the role.

I also think a few writers outside Loedbell pushed forward that notion instead of keeping that status quo: Grant Morrison (the rebooted take in Batman and Robin), Greg Pak, Tomasi, so it`s a start. And with every start, it starts with baby steps. I don`t want Jason to be burned with New52 level of Tim praise. Keep that way, it never does any favors. Keep building him up year after year to set him for the long haul.

"It's Jason's spin on them that makes it seem that way because Jason doesn't see himself in a good light to begin with and I don't see them as showing "only the bad stuff". He has self esteem issues and nowhere is that shown more clearly than in the last issue of Red Hood/Arsenal. He tells Roy that he can never be the hero that Roy thinks he can be but throughout that series and the previous one he has been shown to be exactly that. A hero with a moral code that, while it isn't Batman's, is still just as strong and noble. Lobdell has doing this over the course of the previous two series. He has Jason narrate something with that slant but then he turns around and shows us, through Jason's actions in whatever the current story, is that Jason is not the "screw-up" he thinks he is.

And in a nutshell, that`s what it ends up being about. I do want Jason moving beyond that as well and RHATO set the wheels in motion from the start, but truly, emotional traumas and sorta have the tendency to go up and down a bit. Especially if he ends up dissapointed as he did by trying to reform Joker`s Daugther. That`s part of the process.

Still (again) it`s a start that both Alfred and Bruce have been the ones to praise Jason the most (and Tim..) within the family. Bruce particularly has been doing it since the start of the reboot, despite his fears regarding Jason going dark side again. Because that`s what a parente does. And what a stark difference it was to the one time Alfred mentioned how "it`s not your fault, sir. The boy was destined to defy you" or something. Talk about victim shaming Al!

We all know why he said it. Your pancakes stink, man.

Amazingly, in one story I actually enjoyed (Gotham Knights with Batgirl).

"I agree though that it would be interesting to see how someone outside of Jason would view his time as Robin. I'd love to see a story or two that delve into Jason's N52 time as Robin from the point of view of Bruce or Dick. I also think it would be interesting to see how Alfred viewed Jason at that time. There have been things touched on in flashbacks but those flashback being told through Jason's eyes are likely a bit skewed because of how he views himself.

Ah yes, this is likely Aazh`s biggest beef and is a nice one. We`ve seen what Bruce thinks and what Jason thinks. But I`d be nice to see others give their spin on his character in the early years, like Alfred, Leslie...even Dick.

[Aahz]

It's Jason's spin on them that makes it seem that way because Jason doesn't see himself in a good light to begin with and I don't see them as showing "only the bad stuff". He has self esteem issues and nowhere is that shown more clearly than in the last issue of Red Hood/Arsenal.

I know that that is the reason, but in the end it still results that we see Jasons time mostly shown in a very negative light. It would be nice to see references to stuff like Jason savin the life of Bruce (the Cult), Gordon (Ten Nights of the Beast), the complete Trinity (For the man how has everything) and the biggest character moment Two Face (Batman 411) or his role in Ledgends.

Something like Nighwing Year one or the Gotham Knight Issue, would also be ok. But imo to rid of that mentality many writer and fans have there needs to be a bigger emphasise on the positive sides.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Thing is, Lobdell's entire approach to Jason (and now Bizarro and Artemis) is to stop getting hung up on the past and what other people think of them. So, having a fluff piece of an outsider singing praises to Jason would undermine Lobdell's entire work on the character.

In the end whether Jason was good or not is irrelevant to his character, he's been defined as the guy who does the most with whatever life deals to him without compromising his ideals. In that context, scenes of Jason looking good or whatever is something only to stroke the ego of the fans.

[Lhynn]

In the end whether Jason was good or not is irrelevant to his character, he's been defined as the guy who does the most with whatever life deals to him without compromising his ideals. In that context, scenes of Jason looking good or whatever is something only to stroke the ego of the fans.

Completely agree with this. especially bolded part. Doesnt matter how good or bad he was, what matters is how he tackles what comes with the baggage he comes with. And thats whats interesting to read about and thats why lodbell is killing it and his book is so good, hes focusing on what makes jason interesting, and he definitely doubled down on that on the last issue.

[Aahz]

Ah yes, this is likely Aazh`s biggest beef and is a nice one. We`ve seen what Bruce thinks and what Jason thinks. But I`d be nice to see others give their spin on his character in the early years, like Alfred, Leslie...even Dick.

When did we really saw what Bruce thinks? Yeah but I think Jason getting some praise from other characters (like Bruce, Dick, Barbara, Tim and maybe even Damian) especially if it is a little bit more specific. Just look for example Bruce short reteling of Jasons origin in Death in the Family or the analysis of Jasons skills in Last Crusade.

And they really need to stop with stuff like this.
Batman & Robin Eternal9 3.jpg

Batman & Robin Eternal 23.jpg

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Those examples are from Tynion and he's a terrible writer so?

[Lhynn]

Those examples are from Tynion and he's a terrible writer so?

Hes better than lodbell. Strangely enough both are writing good books now. Which begs the question, what the hell was going on with the new 52?.

[Aioros22]

When did we really saw what Bruce thinks?

Portrait scene, vouching for Jason within the JL, Morrison`s Batman&Robin where Jason takes on another identity, Pak`s Superman/Batman Annual, Batman: Eternal....

Yeah but I think Jason getting some praise from other characters (like Bruce, Dick, Barbara, Tim and maybe even Damian) especially if it is a little bit more specific. Just look for example Bruce short reteling of Jasons origin in Death in the Family or the analysis of Jasons skills in Last Crusade

Always welcome.

And they really need to stop with stuff like this.
Batman & Robin Eternal9 3.jpg

Batman & Robin Eternal 23.jpg

Ideally yes, but Aazh, you kind of should accept that not every writer will deliver or care to. Not every writer delivers or cares to regarding Dick Grayson and he`s the proverbial prodigial son. More than, that you need to accept that even writers who do, may come off short sometimes.

That writer? Wrote Jason punking Shiva and was part of the creative team that had him beat Cass on points.

You take the good, you take the bad. Everybody is miscast in detritment to something.