Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Powertool]

Lodbell alone and by himself ruined the most prominent characters of an entire generation of superheroes.

He singlehandedly destroyed them so badly,

False, false, false. On all counts. Not even Jack Kirby at his finest, when he was the staunchest believer in teamwork in the history of comic books would have managed to get something readable on the pages of Teen Titans while working under an editoral regime that was in equal parts schizophrenic, self-contradictory, temporising and authoritarian. And anyway, let's not pretend we've gotten any masterpieces from that title from One Year Later onwards and even before that, the best material starring DC's young heroes had been published on books that weren't titled Teen Titans. All in all, the franchise has been on a downward spyral ever since the late Eighties.

[Aioros22]

Cannae believe we are arguing over lodbell and tynnion. Tynnion has been harmless to the characters he has written.
Sure, he wrote jason as a screw up, but so did Lodbell, heck JasonTodd428 freaking avatar is clearly showing how he failed to measure up at first.

Neither really wrote or write Jason as a screw up. Loedbell has shown Jason`s emotional struggles as means to apply to his present day growth (like the example you mention, which is a staple in terms of role training) or as means to constrast or bring characters together. Tynion hasn`t really done any of it worth mentioning, exactly because his style is usually more superficial in character work.

[Aahz]

I think the whole premise of with taking more of less the characters that were on the team pre flashpoint but completely erasing their history and their connection to the parent franchise and re-imagine them, was in general a bad idea and I think most writers would have had problem to make it work. If that was Lobdell decision or if he got orders from the editors I don't know. It is imo already amazing that he made the Outlaws work which had also a kind of problematic line up.

Tynion keeps the characters close to the pre flashpoint characterisation, which is of course more popular with the fans. And he has also some really bad ideas like that horrible Jason Barbara romance in eternal. And I'm kind of curious if he can make Azrael work, which was for me never a really appealing character.

[Lhynn]

Neither really wrote or write Jason as a screw up. Loedbell has shown Jason`s emotional struggles as means to apply to his present day growth (like the example you mention, which is a staple in terms of role training) or as means to constrast or bring characters together.

Potato Potatoe.
He failed to measure up while he was a robin by his own standards and admision, then got killed (and no, im not implying both reasons are related). Proving himself better to Bats, and more than anything, to himself, is what his arc has been all about.

Tynion hasn`t really done any of it worth mentioning, exactly because his style is usually more superficial in character work.

He has done very well moving batwoman forward actually. Hes also doing a fairly good job at reinventing clayface. The rest of the cast has yet to be developed, but the Steph arc so far is decent, well see how he ends it before i can make up my mind on what hes setting up.

[Lhynn]

I think the whole premise of with taking more of less the characters that were on the team pre flashpoint but completely erasing their history and their connection to the parent franchise and re-imagine them, was in general a bad idea and I think most writers would have had problem to make it work.

Sure, which is why he should have stuck with anything he could instead of changing everything. He should have let his parents die while he was a robin, he should have kept his high school years, he should have kept his exchanges with shiva, ras, bruce. He should have kept his origin intact, even if modifying it for modern audiences. He threw like 20 years of character development down the drain, then gave him an ironman suit and called it a day.

If that was Lobdell decision or if he got orders from the editors I don't know. It is imo already amazing that he made the Outlaws work which had also a kind of problematic line up.

Didnt he make starfire a slut and the whole thing a 3 way relationship? Make no mistake, the only one benefitted from that book was Jason, i doubt, and really hope its not even part of the canon for roy and starfire.

Tynion keeps the characters close to the pre flashpoint characterisation, which is of course more popular with the fans. And he has also some really bad ideas like that horrible Jason Barbara romance in eternal.

Could have worked, if they had taken it seriously and went along with it, no matter how many of Dicks fans it pissed. The problem was that it was played half assed, in a book that didnt matter because it was about events that came to pass, so it either pissed people off, or they didnt care because it didnt matter. Really stupid way to do it.

And I'm kind of curious if he can make Azrael work, which was for me never a really appealing character.

He already has, as the wise, calm and religious member that can be p. badass. His latest development places him close to nightcrawler, which can definitely work with the team composition he has, it literally writes itself.

[okiedokiewo]

Didnt he make starfire a slut and the whole thing a 3 way relationship? Make no mistake, the only one benefitted from that book was Jason, i doubt, and really hope its not even part of the canon for roy and starfire

...no. This comment is hysterical.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Cannae believe we are arguing over lodbell and tynnion. Tynnion has been harmless to the characters he has written.
Sure, he wrote jason as a screw up, but so did Lodbell, heck JasonTodd428 freaking avatar is clearly showing how he failed to measure up at first.

Under him RHATO fell like a rock on sales charts, how is that "harmless"?

Potato Potatoe.
He failed to measure up while he was a robin by his own standards and admision, then got killed (and no, im not implying both reasons are related). Proving himself better to Bats, and more than anything, to himself, is what his arc has been all about.

Nope. The arc is about the "Dark Trinity" living by themselves and stop trying to measure to something they can't never be. I'm confused at how you missed this since it was made explicit when Jason reached to Bizarro to calm him down.

He has done very well moving batwoman forward actually. Hes also doing a fairly good job at reinventing clayface. The rest of the cast has yet to be developed, but the Steph arc so far is decent, well see how he ends it before i can make up my mind on what hes setting up.

Except that Clayface came from nowhere, the last time he was seen during the N52 was shortly after DOTF and he was still full psycho there. Again, his characterization lack consistence and buildup, simply going for the pandering.

Sure, which is why he should have stuck with anything he could instead of changing everything. He should have let his parents die while he was a robin, he should have kept his high school years, he should have kept his exchanges with shiva, ras, bruce. He should have kept his origin intact, even if modifying it for modern audiences. He threw like 20 years of character development down the drain, then gave him an ironman suit and called it a day.

Did you miss the "reboot" part of the N52?

Didnt he make starfire a slut and the whole thing a 3 way relationship? Make no mistake, the only one benefitted from that book was Jason, i doubt, and really hope its not even part of the canon for roy and starfire.

Did you read the book? Because nothing of that is true.

He already has, as the wise, calm and religious member that can be p. badass. His latest development places him close to nightcrawler, which can definitely work with the team composition he has, it literally writes itself.

Except that Jean Paul's character was all about his struggles to unify the two persons living inside him: the dorky, Gotham U undergrad and St. Dumas Assassin. Cutting that and making him a "badass" religious zealot is missing the whole point of his character. Hell, Tynion isn't even writing Jean Paul, he's writing Michael Lane.

[Caivu]

Except that Clayface came from nowhere, the last time he was seen during the N52 was shortly after DOTF and he was still full psycho there. Again, his characterization lack consistence and buildup, simply going for the pandering.

He was actually last seen during the final arc of Batwoman, where he was very close in personality to where he is now. He had gotten amnesia, which resulted in his personality change, and that's been reiterated in 'Tec. So it didn't come from absolutely nowhere, and if it has to be anyone's fault (for whatever reason), it's not Tynion's.


Edit: Annnnnd it turns out that he was in a few issues of various things after that. Whatever. Point is, Clayface being a good guy has recent precedence. If he has inconsistent personalities, that can be easily handwaved away by the stuff he said in the most recent 'Tec issue: basically, that shapeshifting affects his mind. Not a big deal.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

He was actually last seen during the final arc of Batwoman, where he was very close in personality to where he is now. He had gotten amnesia, which resulted in his personality change, and that's been reiterated in 'Tec. So it didn't come from absolutely nowhere, and if it has to be anyone's fault (for whatever reason), it's not Tynion's.


Edit: Annnnnd it turns out that he was in a few issues of various things after that. Whatever. Point is, Clayface being a good guy has recent precedence. If he has inconsistent personalities, that can be easily handwaved away by the stuff he said in the most recent 'Tec issue: basically, that shapeshifting affects his mind. Not a big deal.

And that is because Tynion is a bad writer, he doesn't bother to show how we got from point A to point B.

[Caivu]

And that is because Tynion is a bad writer, he doesn't bother to show how we got from point A to point B.

You can't pin Clayface on Tynion (if indeed is actually something that needs to be pinned on someone). Clayface was acting nice at least a little bit toward the end of New 52, and he's just building on that. He doesn't need to show how it happened because it already has. Clayface got amnesia, now he's nice. All Tynion added was a bit of an explanation as to how, but he didn't just get "Clayface is nice" out of nowhere. If you just have to blame someone for that, blame Marc Andreyko.

Handwaving isn't a bad thing, by the way. It just means there's an explanation of some kind, so don't worry about it. The precise details don't matter.

I'm not sure what you mean by how he doesn't show getting from one point to another, either. I can see it just fine.

[Lhynn]

Under him RHATO fell like a rock on sales charts, how is that "harmless"?

How is it not? books that arent well written usually go down in sales. Doesnt mean that every character involved is ruined, except if you happen to be lodbell.

Nope. The arc is about the "Dark Trinity" living by themselves and stop trying to measure to something they can't never be. I'm confused at how you missed this since it was made explicit when Jason reached to Bizarro to calm him down.

Didnt miss it, one theme is just an extension of the other.

Except that Clayface came from nowhere, the last time he was seen during the N52 was shortly after DOTF and he was still full psycho there. Again, his characterization lack consistence and buildup, simply going for the pandering.

Pandering to clayfaces fans everywhere im guessing. Give it a break, you are embarrasing yourself.

Did you miss the "reboot" part of the N52?

Oh come on, this is just disingenuous, Dick had pretty much the same story, so did Jason, so did Bruce, so did Damian. There were some slight changes because of the compressed timeline but thats it. This Tim Drake is an entirely new and different character in every way, you will struggle to find even the most superficial similarities between both his reincarnations. "hey guys, this is about Tim Drake and his Titans" Bait and swich if i ever saw one.

Did you read the book? Because nothing of that is true.

Subtext. It was obviously implied.

Except that Jean Paul's character was all about his struggles to unify the two persons living inside him: the dorky, Gotham U undergrad and St. Dumas Assassin. Cutting that and making him a "badass" religious zealot is missing the whole point of his character. Hell, Tynion isn't even writing Jean Paul, he's writing Michael Lane.

Jean Paul has always been p. uninteresting character. Hes due a remake that makes him both more interesting in his struggle and have a better dynamic with other characters. He was basically a batman by way of moon knight and nobody cared for it.
Saw some of his fans getting up in arms over him being easily defeated at the start of Tec, saw none of them complain for making him a more compelling and grounded character, both in his struggle and attitude, while still remaining largely the same.

[Aahz]

Oh come on, this is just disingenuous, Dick had pretty much the same story, so did Jason, so did Bruce, so did Damian. There were some slight changes because of the compressed timeline but thats it. This Tim Drake is an entirely new and different character in every way, you will struggle to find even the most superficial similarities between both his reincarnations. "hey guys, this is about Tim Drake and his Titans" Bait and swich if i ever saw one.

Dick and Jason lost also quite big parts of their history, and imo Dick and Jason being already 16 when they became Robin should have quite an impact on them and their relation with Bruce (even if the writers mostly ignore it).

And I think you really overestimating the the effect that the origin stories have on a character.
For nostalgic reasons it would have been nice if certain elements had been still been there but many of them don't have such a big impact in the end.
If you compare in Jasons case for example his classic post crisis origin, with the new 52 one, the first issues of Arkham Knight Genesis and the DCAU-Tim Drake Version, all of them are quite different stories (and I could probably write a long text about which elements I like and which don't) but in the end you could probably use all of them as origin for the current Jason, and it wouldn't really have an effect on the current comics. You could maybe even use "Just Imagine Stan Lee's Robin" as basis for his origin and it would still work.

[kaimaciel]

Ed Boon is trying to kill me with an heart attack.

Sem Título.jpg

https://twitter.com/noobde/status/805898241753620480

[Aioros22]

Potato Potatoe.
He failed to measure up while he was a robin by his own standards and admision, then got killed (and no, im not implying both reasons are related). Proving himself better to Bats, and more than anything, to himself, is what his arc has been all about.

A bit of pot calling the kettle, innite?

You just made a link between that particular flashback to the current state of affairs in the story. It`s used not as means to cliche bait Jason in the screw role up for it`s own sake but as means to direct his growth as a character. He`s been doing it since the first volume of RATHO. That, IMHO is not being harmfull to the character, especially when the flashbacks you get to see are mostly shown in a positive light. They aren`t about Bruce or others pinpointing how he doesn`t measure up. Like Miller said with his "Last Crusade", that`s more a battle in his own perception and mind, for growing up the way he did. For everyone leaving, so to speak, for having to fend for himself alone.

You just need to see a bit of that with the closing arc of RHAA.

Any generic misteps happened to every Robin on trial, that`s nothing new or groundbreaking. The current case with Jason and the Outlaws goes beyond that and Loedbell is expanding it with the Dark Trinity simbolism. I`m reminded of a general idea I`ve read over "Peter Pan in Scarlet" that somehow seems to fit. That of "cloathes making the man".

He has done very well moving batwoman forward actually. Hes also doing a fairly good job at reinventing clayface. The rest of the cast has yet to be developed, but the Steph arc so far is decent, well see how he ends it before i can make up my mind on what hes setting up.

I was talking about Jason. Regarding Detective, Clayface is by far his best character work yet, we`ll see how the rest goes. He`s improving but to me he hasn`t dwelve deep in character analysis the way I`ve seen Loedbell do with Jason and the Outlaws cast or way back with the X-Men.

[Aioros22]

How is it not? books that arent well written usually go down in sales. Doesnt mean that every character involved is ruined, except if you happen to be lodbell.

Are you agreeing here that Tynion`s run on the book wasn`t well written?

Personally, I didn`t hated it but like I mentioned before, it was kind of superficial, kind of going nowhere. Kinda.

Didnt he make starfire a slut and the whole thing a 3 way relationship? Make no mistake, the only one benefitted from that book was Jason, i doubt, and really hope its not even part of the canon for roy and starfire.

There was no 3-way bed or 3-way relationship or even an actual relationship between Kory and Roy until later on. It`s basically Wolfman Kory butless Disney purty, I guess. You know, the Starfire who doesn`t get humans being puritans, who grew up a slave of a planetary kingdom and learns languages by kissing people. That`s never appearantly an issue as long it`s Dick Grayson she`s kissing, despite them not being together for two decades.

The first issue was mostly drawn to get attention, I`ll give you that, but even then Jason and Kory have no fling. What they have is a respectuful life teacher/student chemistry. She`s the first person as par the reboot to whom Jason opens up and tells her the whole story of his life.

And later relationship apart, I don`t think he got Roy badly either. It`s the best Roy ever since DC screwed him up big time. At the very least Loedbell gave him good qualities, a heart and this great idea of Killer Crock being his adiction sponsor.