Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Godlike13]

I know the popular thing to do is blame it all on Tynion, but the downward trend was there even before Tynion. At least when not tying into Batman. And right now its well out of the top 100. Which to be blunt, makes what he's currently doing in it rather irrelevant. Because no one really reading it anymore, other than the die-hards who stuck with it. Whats its doing, or he's doing in it, certainly isn't standing out.
They need to do something, and reverting him to something closer to how he was pre-52 Jason is just an idea. Because reverting Jason closer to the person he was before he died isn't really working anymore.
To me reverting him to something closer to how he was pre-52 doesn't sound like too bad of an idea given that thats the Jason they made an animated movie about, and that the Jason thats presumably gonna be showcased in the new Arkham game. Its the Jason that arguably has the most general appeal.

[kidstandout]

I know the popular thing to do is blame it all on Tynion, but there wasn't really "a lot" of people reading the book even before Tynion. At least when not tying into Batman. And right now its well out of the top 100. Which to be blunt, makes what he's currently doing in it rather irrelevant. Because no one really reading it anymore, other than the die-hards who stuck with it.

there's no denying that the book needs a shot in the arm. it's just a matter of giving him antibiotics or cyanide.

objectively speaking, the book was "a lot" better,quality and sales wise, before tynion. if dc were smart, they should of relaunched it after issue #28

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Because Jason Todd being Jason Todd isn't generally appealing. The person he was before was voted to die, and then was left dead for decades. The character is too fundamentally similar to characters they already have. It wasn't till UtRH that Jason finally became something interesting and more unique.
Thats why there are people who want to see him go back to being more like he was then. Because as he is right now he's become rather pointless, and i dare say even boring. Now the same people keep going round and round with this argument, but regardless its pretty evident that RHatO has lost its general audience and they need to do something.

Weird, I've followed the Sons of Batman's books since the start of the N52 and I don't remember Dick, Damian and Tim teaming up to release a planet from invaders, or killing a terrorist cell, or fighting a ancient horror disguised as a sheriff on Colorado, or killing a crime lord that took hostage a kid's hospital, or taking part on a death match for the amusement of Alien overlords...

And again, the lost on RHATO's readers was because the terrible mess Tynion's run was, not because the stories/characters themselves have lost appeal.

And Decline?

Let's see numbers:

Lobdell's last six months:

Red Hood And The Outlaws 18 $2.99 DC 37,731
Red Hood And The Outlaws 17 $2.99 DC 53,076
Red Hood and the Outlaws 16 $2.99 DC 59,621
Red Hood And The Outlaws 15 $2.99 DC 64,103
Red Hood And The Outlaws 14 $2.99 DC 37,710
Red Hood And The Outlaws 13 $2.99 DC 35,420

Barring the spike that were the DOTF tie ins, the book sit comfortably on the 35-37 mark

Tynion's first issue sat on the same range

Red Hood And The Outlaws 19 $2.99 DC 36,630

But his last six issues?

Red Hood And The Outlaws 28 $2.99 DC 23,236
Red Hood and The Outlaws 27 $2.99 DC 24,813
Red Hood And The Outlaws 26 $2.99 DC 25,382
Red Hood And The Outlaws 25 $3.99 DC 30,632
Red Hood and the Outlaws 24 $2.99 DC 27,128
Red Hood and The Outlaws 23 $2.99 DC 28,821

Even the Zero Year tie in painfully failed to get the DOTF tie ins numbers, you're deluding yourself if you don't think the book current sales aren't Tynion's fault.

[Godlike13]

Tynion's run saw more or less the same amount of deflation Lobdell's was seeing, minus the tie-in issue. So u guys can try to blame it all on Tynion all u want, but sorry, im not buying it. The trend was there even before him.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Tynion's run saw more or less the same amount of deflation Lobdell's was seeing, minus the tie-in issue. So u guys can try to blame it all on Tynion all u want, but sorry, im not buying it. The trend was there even before him.

I'm gonna need clarification on this, what trend?

Not counting the tie ins, Lobdell's issues actually saw an increase on sales (going from 35k to 37k). What deflation are you seeing?

[DurararaFTW]

Yeah, the book was doing 36,000~ before Tynion came along, Death of the Family tie in's not included. Tynion was the one that killed reader interest, my personal feelings about how Lobdell handled the characters aside.

[Godlike13]

The book was doing 36,000 right after it was coming off of the Batman tie-in. Book debuted at around 56k and dropped to the 35's (when Superman wasn't appearing). Tynion's run saw a similar continual bleed that Lobdell's saw. It just didn't have the luxury of the tie-ins that Lobdell's had.

[DurararaFTW]

The book was doing 36,000 right after it was coming off of the Batman tie-in. Book debuted at around 56k and dropped to the 35's (when Superman wasn't appearing). Tynion's run saw a similar continual bleed. It just didn't have the luxury of the tie-ins that Lobdell's had.

It was doing 36~ before and after. It had gotten to about that point since the 5th issue. All books bleed numbers, but Tynion certainly quickened things for Red Hood and the Outlaws.

[kidstandout]

The book was doing 36,000 right after it was coming off of the Batman tie-in. Book debuted at around 56k and dropped to the 35's (when Superman wasn't appearing). Tynion's run saw a similar continual bleed that Lobdell's saw. It just didn't have the luxury of the tie-ins that Lobdell's had.

so a decline from 56 to 37 across 18 issues is the same as a 37 to 22 drop across 10?

[Godlike13]

It was doing 36~ before and after. It had gotten to about that point since the 5th issue. All books bleed numbers, but Tynion certainly quickened things for Red Hood and the Outlaws.

No, the book was in the 40s with issue 5. Got to the 34s with 12, then right after saw a 0 issue, Superman, and Batman tie-ins. His last issue before Tynion was a Requiem lets not forget. Like u say all books bleed numbers, Tynion's run just didn't see the same gimmicks.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

No, the book was in the 40s with issue 5. Got to the 34s with 12, then right after saw a 0 issue, Superman, and Batman tie-ins. His last issue before Tynion was a Requiem lets not forget. Like u say all books bleed numbers, Tynion's run just didn't see the same gimmicks.

You're moving the goalposts now and including the reboot hype instead of looking at the normal numbers that a second tier book like this one should be movng to be considered a success. Under your metric, EVERY N52 BOOK BUT BATMAN IS A FAILURE.

Plus you're ignoring the fact those "crossovers" are accounted for on the numbers I posted, Superman cameo was issue 14 and issues 17 and 18 weren't considered tie ins for the readers.

[Godlike13]

You're moving the goalposts now and including the reboot hype instead of looking at the normal numbers that a second tier book like this one should be movng to be considered a success. Under your metric, EVERY N52 BOOK BUT BATMAN IS A FAILURE.

Plus you're ignoring the fact those "crossovers" are accounted for on the numbers I posted, Superman cameo was issue 14 and issues 17 and 18 weren't considered tie ins for the readers.

Issue 17 was an "Aftermath" issue, and again 18 was a "Requiem". Im not ignoring anything, the simple fact is that with the numbers u posted only one issue of Lobdells didn't have some sort of gimmick attached to it. Compared to Tynion's numbers where there was only one. Looking at the normal numbers, those not being inflated by a gimmick or guest appearance, Lobdell's run was heading the same place as Tynion. There really isn't this huge gap in the numbers that shows it was specific to Tynion and that he killed the title like u guys want to make it seem.

And im not saying the book isn't a success or that it is, im just saying that its ran its course.

[EdwardNigma]

Under the Red Hood Jason wanted to control crime, take the place of guys like Black Mask. That's not the Punisher, it doesn't even neccesitate a huge bodycount. That all he ended up doing in pre-52 was fight with other heros was because he didn't have his own solo, not because his character such as it was, was empty.

Well said.

[kidstandout]

Issue 17 was an "Aftermath" issue, and again 18 was a "Requiem". Im not ignoring anything, the simple fact is that with the numbers u posted only one issue didn't have some sort of gimmick attached to it. Looking at the normal numbers, those bing inflated by a gimmick, Lobdell's run was heading the same place as Tynion.

shifting goal post up right left down.

one of lobdell's 'gimmick' issues was rated better than tynion's whole stint. you can argue crossover gimmicks all you like, doesn't change the fact that tynion's run was sh%$.

[DurararaFTW]

Issue 17 was an "Aftermath" issue, and again 18 was a "Requiem". Im not ignoring anything, the simple fact is that with the numbers u posted only one issue of Lobdell didn't have some sort of gimmick attached to it. Compared to Tynion's numbers where there was only one. Looking at the normal numbers, those not being inflated by a gimmick or guest appearance, Lobdell's run was heading the same place as Tynion. There really isn't this huge gap in the numbers that shows it was specific to Tynion and that he killed the title like u guys want to make it seem.

By issue 4 it was at 38+, it never dropped below 34 during Lobdell's run. During Tynion's run it started losing 2000 readers an issue.

And frankly speaking, Tynion lives on the same planet we do. You don't have to be in an event to have a big name guest in your comic. What happened, happened on Tynion's watch.