Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Godlike13]

shifting goal post up right left down.

one of lobdell's 'gimmick' issues was rated better than tynion's whole stint. you can argue crossover gimmicks all you like, doesn't change the fact that tynion's run was sh%$.

What goal post am i moving? I said i don't buy that it was Tynion the killed the title, then u guys throw out gimmick inflated Lobdell numbers like it supports something. And im not arguing that Tynion's run wasn't sh%$, it was shit. I dropped his run just as fast as i dropped Lobdell's.

[Godlike13]

By issue 4 it was at 38+, it never dropped below 34 during Lobdell's run. During Tynion's run it started losing 2000 readers an issue.

And frankly speaking, Tynion lives on the same planet we do. You don't have to be in an event to have a big name guest in your comic. What happened, happened on Tynion's watch.

By issue 4 it was at 44, as soon as it hit 34k under Lobdell the book only saw one issue that didn't have a gimmick attached to it. Losing 2000 readers an issue is what more or less Lobdell's run was seeing too, when it wasn't being inflated be a gimmick. And u have to be able to have a big name guest in your comic. It certainly helps being able to do that when ur also writing that big name guest.

[DurararaFTW]

What goal post am i moving? I said i don't buy that it was Tynion the killed the title, then u guys throw out gimmick inflated Lobdell numbers like it supports something. And im not arguing that Tynion's run wasn't sh%$, it was shit. I dropped his run just as fast as i dropped Lobdell's.

Lobdell's numbers, aside from the ones inflated by gimmicks aren't bad either. And yeah, Superman>Strange and Ra's when it comes to bringing your numbers up. Not Lobdell's fault if Tynion thought otherwise.

By issue 4 it was at 44, as soon as it hit 34k under Lobdell the book only saw one issue that didn't have a gimmick attached to it. Losing 2000 readers an issue is what more or less Lobdell's run was seeing too, when it wasn't being inflated be a gimmick. And u have to be able to have a big name guest in your comic. It certainly helps being able to do that when ur also writing that big name guest.

Whose numbers are you going by? And it helps, it is in no way required. The Justice League appears in Superman titles all the time. Batgirl appeared in Nightwing a couple of times. Tynion didn't have access to Batman as part of DOTF fall-out (though Johns felt free to throw Red Hood in the batcave for no reason) but there was a world of options left.

[Godlike13]

The Beat. The reason ur probably seeing disparity in the numbers is that they didn't deduct 10% like the early issues were being reported at, because of the whole returnable thing they were doing at the time. .

[kidstandout]

What goal post am i moving? I said i don't buy that it was Tynion the killed the title, then u guys throw out gimmick inflated Lobdell numbers like it supports something. And im not arguing that Tynion's run wasn't sh%$, it was shit. I dropped his run just as fast as i dropped Lobdell's.

you go from claiming that the decline was the same for both writers but when shown otherwise you attempt to discredit them by labeling them as crossover gimmicks despite tynions whole run being nothing but league of assassin cameos as well as the fact that, again, not a single issue from tynions run can compare to issue #18 in both reception and sales.

[Godlike13]

you go from claiming that the decline was the same for both writers but when shown otherwise you attempt to discredit them by labeling them as crossover gimmicks despite tynions whole run being nothing but league of assassin cameos as well as the fact that, again, not a single issue from tynions run can compare to issue #18.

See that "Requiem" on there? Im not labeling them, DC is the one labeling these issues. Im not moving the goal post by pointing out that the issues that were shown had gimmicks labeled on their covers to inflate their sales. Save for one, #13 which did 35,420. Which is where Tynion's run basically started at. Discrediting something isn't moving the goal post.

Whatever though. Im done with this argument, if u guys want to blame it on Tynion go ahead. His run was crap, and im certainly not defending it. Regardless it doesn't change where the book is at now, and its lack of audience.

[kidstandout]

See that "Requiem" on there? Im not labeling them, DC is the one labeling these issues. I'm not moving the goal post by pointing out that the issues i was shown had gimmicks labeled on their covers to inflate their sales. Save for one, #13 which did 35,420. Which is where Tynion's run basically started at.

well then let's put it this way, the overall quality of the series under lobdell compared to tynion is more then enough to disprove the notion that if he never left the book, it wouldn't effect the sales. a book will suffer a fluctuation when the direction of said book changes so rapidly. a book with stronger writing will bleed less, which explains why tynions book bled more in ten issues then lobdell did in 18

[MichaelAngel0]

exactly, whats funny is people trying to say ciopying punisher is better than being his own character. how about let jason not be a clone frank castle, max payne, natasha romanov ect. how about let jason todd be jason todd. the guy has finally returned to being the the person he was before he died after literally journeying through hell on a road of self discovery. objectively speaking, he is a more developed character for that.

First of all, Castle, Payne and Romanov aren't even remotely close to being the same characters, but they are different takes on having an anti-hero that's willing to kill criminals.

Castle - a former U.S. Navy seals that lived thru the Vietnam War, a war America got involved in via corrupt politics, and an experience that very likely helped to drive Castle's motivation when the mob that killed his family got off free due to corruption. This guy's mentality on how to deal with enemies was put into him via said Vietnam War.

Romanov - was an orphan that was was rescued by a solder, Ivan Bezukhov, and when his life was in danger she joined the Soviet Union's "Red Room" facilty, which turned her into a super spy and killing machine. She kills (when she needs, or is ordered to) because it eliminates the threat.

Payne - this guy is the character most like Jason Todd (New 52), in that he had a horrible father who's actions correlated to the death spiral of his mother. However, unlike unlike Jason, Max is put in fatalist situations where, no matter what he does, people he's close to, or supposed to protect, always die and he's left to pick up the pieces, or lack thereof.

If anyone here has ever read Remender's Deadly Class, his main character, Marcus, is the best example of what I've always wanted Jason to be characterized like ever since I read RHatO #O.

Because Jason Todd being Jason Todd isn't generally appealing. The person he was before was voted to die, and then was left dead for decades. The character is too fundamentally similar to characters they already have. It wasn't till UtRH that Jason finally became something interesting and more unique.
Thats why there are people who want to see him go back to being more like he was then. Because as he is right now he's become rather pointless, and i dare say even boring. Now the same people keep going round and round with this argument, but regardless its pretty evident that RHatO has lost its general audience and they need to do something.

Under the Red Hood Jason wanted to control crime, take the place of guys like Black Mask. That's not the Punisher, it doesn't even neccesitate a huge bodycount. That all he ended up doing in pre-52 was fight with other heros was because he didn't have his own solo, not because his character such as it was, was empty.

I agree with this.

There's reason this version of Jason Todd was voted to die; he was boring, and unremarkable. The Jason Todd that came back is what got people interested in him again, however he was impeded by his lack of a solo book, and, thus, lacking of "screen time".

Also, people keep saying that criminal underworld focused stuff would be boring, yet Batman Eternal is doing very well, even with it's major focus other smaller criminal players.

Anyways, I'll continue this discussion later; busy right now.

[kidstandout]

First of all, Castle, Payne and Romanov aren't even remotely close to being the same characters, but they are different takes on having an anti-hero that's willing to kill criminals.

Castle - a former U.S. Navy seals that lived thru the Vietnam War, a war America got involved in via corrupt politics, and an experience that very likely helped to drive Castle's motivation when the mob that killed his family got off free due to corruption. This guy's mentality on how to deal with enemies was put into him via said Vietnam War.

Romanov - was an orphan that was was rescued by a solder, Ivan Bezukhov, and when his life was in danger she joined the Soviet Union's "Red Room" facilty, which turned her into a super spy and killing machine. She kills (when she needs, or is ordered to) because it eliminates the threat.

Payne - this guy is the character most like Jason Todd (New 52), in that he had a horrible father who's actions correlated to the death spiral of his mother. However, unlike unlike Jason, Max is put in fatalist situations where, no matter what he does, people he's close to, or supposed to protect, always die and he's left to pick up the pieces, or lack thereof.

If anyone here has ever read Remender's Deadly Class, his main character, Marcus, is the best example of what I've always wanted Jason to be characterized like ever since I read RHatO #O.




I agree with this.

There's reason this version of Jason Todd was voted to die; he was boring, and unremarkable. The Jason Todd that came back is what got people interested in him again, however he was impeded by his lack of a solo book, and, thus, lacking of "screen time".

Also, people keep saying that criminal underworld focused stuff would be boring, yet Batman Eternal is doing very well, even with it's major focus other smaller criminal players.

Anyways, I'll continue this discussion later; busy right now.

only brought those guys up because it seems that people are suggesting he should be more like them, which in turn makes him less unique as opposed to his current role. but from a conceptual pov, jason is already like all those characters in terms of back story. tragedy happens to family? check. revenge? check. killing as second nature?check

jason todd was killed off because people didn't like him for being dicks replacement. the fact that he was an arrogant punk didn't help either. the whole time he was robin, people were measuring him up to dick and felt he came up short. the fact that he spent most of his robin years trying to out do him only reinforces the point. his strengths as a character were ignored when he was robin, his faults magnified when he was red hood in pre 52. there's a reason why jason haters were so vocal about preferring him as a corpse; up until the new 52, he was devoid of any character growth. now jason gets to be jason minus the pressure of having to compete with dick both in story and among the readers. he's not nitewing lite, punisher, max payne or whatever the f%^$, he's jason todd. if him being himself and moving forward doesn't appeal to you, perhaps you are better suited following another character because DC isn't heading back to the rut jason was in during pre 52 anytime soon

[LoneNecromancer]

I agree with this.

There's reason this version of Jason Todd was voted to die; he was boring, and unremarkable.

No, it was because he was viewed as kind of a punk, not becaue he was boring. Despite being written by someone who hated him, he was written with more character than Dick ever had, who was just an atypical kid character. I remember reading the Golden Age Batman stories in those Chronicles volumes, if they hated kid sidekicks for being boring and unremarkable they would've quickly hated Dick for being relegated to a sidekick getting captured all the time.

And someone rigged the poll anyway.

[kidstandout]

No, it was because he was viewed as kind of a punk, not becaue he was boring. Despite being written by someone who hated him, he was written with more character than Dick ever had, who was just an atypical kid character.

And someone rigged the poll anyway.

these aswell

[MichaelAngel0]

No, it was because he was viewed as kind of a punk, not becaue he was boring. Despite being written by someone who hated him, he was written with more character than Dick ever had, who was just an atypical kid character. I remember reading the Golden Age Batman stories in those Chronicles volumes, if they hated kid sidekicks for being boring and unremarkable they would've quickly hated Dick for being relegated to a sidekick getting captured all the time.

And someone rigged the poll anyway.

I guess, I'm looking at it in hindsight, and based off the types of books we have today, when I said that. I have to admit, that when I look back at that whole situation, I'm still shocked that he was hated so much while, the extremely boring Dick was lauded over. Even if I think that Jason back then was still vanilla, he was WAY better than Dick.

I still think the same way now, even though I still have a problem with Jason's characterization (as you probably already noticed).

only brought those guys up because it seems that people are suggesting he should be more like them, which in turn makes him less unique as opposed to his current role. but from a conceptual pov, jason is already like all those characters in terms of back story. tragedy happens to family? check. revenge? check. killing as second nature?check

his strengths as a character were ignored when he was robin, his faults magnified when he was red hood in pre 52. there's a reason why jason haters were so vocal about preferring him as a corpse; up until the new 52, he was devoid of any character growth. now jason gets to be jason minus the pressure of having to compete with dick both in story and among the readers. he's not nitewing lite, punisher, max payne or whatever the f%^$, he's jason todd. if him being himself and moving forward doesn't appeal to you, perhaps you are better suited following another character because DC isn't heading back to the rut jason was in during pre 52 anytime soon

You seem to think that just because I want to see a darker take on JAson that I'm also opposed to Jason growing as a character as well. Well I can tell you that that's not the case. I made a second post right after that wall of text I first wrote on the Revamp Red Hood thread about how Jason would grow as character again after falling so low, but a mod must've deleted it.

I'll elaborate tomorrow, on this thread, or I could just PM you, as to not clutter the forum with our debate. You may even like some of the ideas I thought up of. What say you?

[Punisher007]

First of all, Castle, Payne and Romanov aren't even remotely close to being the same characters, but they are different takes on having an anti-hero that's willing to kill criminals.

Castle - a former U.S. Navy seals that lived thru the Vietnam War, a war America got involved in via corrupt politics, and an experience that very likely helped to drive Castle's motivation when the mob that killed his family got off free due to corruption. This guy's mentality on how to deal with enemies was put into him via said Vietnam War.

Romanov - was an orphan that was was rescued by a solder, Ivan Bezukhov, and when his life was in danger she joined the Soviet Union's "Red Room" facilty, which turned her into a super spy and killing machine. She kills (when she needs, or is ordered to) because it eliminates the threat.

Payne - this guy is the character most like Jason Todd (New 52), in that he had a horrible father who's actions correlated to the death spiral of his mother. However, unlike unlike Jason, Max is put in fatalist situations where, no matter what he does, people he's close to, or supposed to protect, always die and he's left to pick up the pieces, or lack thereof.

If anyone here has ever read Remender's Deadly Class, his main character, Marcus, is the best example of what I've always wanted Jason to be characterized like ever since I read RHatO #O.




I agree with this.

There's reason this version of Jason Todd was voted to die; he was boring, and unremarkable. The Jason Todd that came back is what got people interested in him again, however he was impeded by his lack of a solo book, and, thus, lacking of "screen time".

Also, people keep saying that criminal underworld focused stuff would be boring, yet Batman Eternal is doing very well, even with it's major focus other smaller criminal players.

Anyways, I'll continue this discussion later; busy right now.

Yeah, it is boring. The Criminal underworld is something that pretty much all of the bat-characters deal with. There's nothing unique about it. Jason has a nice niche right now that's uniquely his, just the Batwoman has hers with the more supernatural elements of Gotham. Saying that he should go back to doing the same old thing that every bat-character does just doesn't sound interesting to me, it's "been there done that."

[DurararaFTW]

No, it was because he was viewed as kind of a punk, not becaue he was boring. Despite being written by someone who hated him, he was written with more character than Dick ever had, who was just an atypical kid character. I remember reading the Golden Age Batman stories in those Chronicles volumes, if they hated kid sidekicks for being boring and unremarkable they would've quickly hated Dick for being relegated to a sidekick getting captured all the time.

And someone rigged the poll anyway.

Jason only adopted that punk attitude Post-Crisis by which time they were probably already considering killing him off. He was a straight Dick clone before, right down to the circus background.

Yeah, it is boring. The Criminal underworld is something that pretty much all of the bat-characters deal with. There's nothing unique about it. Jason has a nice niche right now that's uniquely his, just the Batwoman has hers with the more supernatural elements of Gotham. Saying that he should go back to doing the same old thing that every bat-character does just doesn't sound interesting to me, it's "been there done that."

Again, Tim, Dick, Bruce and Barbara are hardly figures of Gotham's criminal underworld. They only lightly touch on that world as the heroes that fight them.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Again, Tim, Dick, Bruce and Barbara are hardly figures of Gotham's criminal underworld. They only lightly touch on that world as the heroes that fight them.

This is currently not true thanks to Eternal and the whole thing about Falcone, that speaking of, Jason CAN'T get involved with the underworld on the degree you're suggesting because that Selina's role now.