Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Well DC cancelled WTF month and just had gate fold covers for an issue, #19 I believe. Still, #18 was the Robin Requiem issue which got a big boost so regardless #19 was going to drop in sales. I don't think the gate fold covers helped much. Maybe increased sales by 1% or less.

Eh, the gatefold covers WERE the WTF month. And considering how the DOTF tie ins hit the 50k range (i.e. an increase of 20k over the series regular numbers) while issue 18 pulled just 37k, I can say that the completionist sector of the market didn't saw it like something relevant leaving only the regular audience for the book.

And I don't think you can compare the art in Tynion's run given Lobdell had Rocafort in the beginning and then when he didn't have him nearly all of his issues tied into an event or a gimmick to boost sales. People jumped on board because it was the #0 issue, the DotF tie ins, and the Robin Requiem issue. Though regardless if Lobdell had more fill in artists I think his issues had better quality art still. That was my point. Tynion's issues did not look as good. I think if he had Rocafort for his issues people would look at his run a lot differently.

I just don't think that Tynion's run did that bad in sales compared to Lobdell's, or was even that far off in terms of story quality. So it wasn't this massive failure that you are trying to make it out to be. I'm not saying it was as good as Lobdell's, it wasn't, but sales wise and even story wise I don't think they were really far apart. It's just Lobdell had the massive amount of tie ins at the end of his run to make it seem better than it was. If Tynion had more tie ins, or if he had a Rocafort, his numbers would probably look better too. The thing is that if it wasn't for all those tie ins then the book would be a lot lower than it currently is even if Lobdell had stayed on it given how the sales were going. I think the book is where it is at not because of Tynion but because that is where the interest level is for a title like this with these characters is unless DC puts a top artist, a top writer, or drastically shakes things up with the team and the book.

Also here is an aggregate site listing all the comic reviews for a series. I said I didn't think Tynion's run was as good as Lobdell's but I thought they were at least somewhat close. The biggest disparity is that Lobdell had Rocafort. I get that the sample size for those reviews isn't a lot, but the reviews for their two runs seem fairly consistent with one another from the people that were reading it. You don't see this huge gap or drop between them.

http://www.comicbookroundup.com/comi...nd-the-outlaws

You're moving the goalposts with your argument about artists, on your original post you made a distinction picking up just the final 4-5 months of Lobdell run and Rocafort was long gone by then (his last full issue was 10, while 11 had a backup story) and as bad Gopez is, he was an stable artist something that Lobdell lacked during those final months (and really, the only good artists that Lobdell had was Kirkham, all the others only did a few pages by issue).

Another thing I've noticed on your argument is that you treat every issue as if the book were still looking for an audience when in reality Lobdell left an established fanbase (one willing to stick with the book despite the subpar art, constant derail by Tie-ins and controversies) putting Tynion on a very comfortable place where he only worry would be to increase the audience, and yet under his pen the book sunk like a rock (I mean, 6k lost on just three months)

And frankly, I don't found that aggregate site trustworthy since it lacks a definite criteria on the reviews it accepts and the issue info isn't accurate (it list Suayan as the artist for 19 for example).

[Daredevil is Legend]

That`s a rather vague thing. He`s less or a mad dog so automatically he`s nicer. The old Jason never dealt with issues, was still growing and was written on purpose to be disliked under Starlin.

This Jason is a grown man who has dealt his issues and does things whether Batman says yes or no, but does it with a collected mind and not because he`s angry towards Bruce. What you do have is actually some shades of Jason under Titans scriber Wolfman. The young but capable Jason who would actually give advice to Roy or Donna despite his age. I say Jason now is a more balanced character without falling into extremes. He`s got a colder sarcastic outsider but a big heart inside to those he cares about.

By the waaaay, anyone noticed how in the Batman and Robin cover with Jason and co on Apokolips, Jason`s armor looks like a certain Arkham Knight?

This was an excellent post

[Daredevil is Legend]

Jason is my favorite DC character and I just don't dig his book right now.It's frustrating.A lot of you guys have good ideas

[Badou]

Eh, the gatefold covers WERE the WTF month. And considering how the DOTF tie ins hit the 50k range (i.e. an increase of 20k over the series regular numbers) while issue 18 pulled just 37k, I can say that the completionist sector of the market didn't saw it like something relevant leaving only the regular audience for the book.

No, WTF month was cancelled and there was no promotion for it like with normal gimmicks. You need to look at the other DC books, like Flash, where the gate fold covers only increased sales by 1% and weren't impacted by the DotF crossover and the Robin Requiem issue. That would show you how successful the covers were generally.

You're moving the goalposts with your argument about artists, on your original post you made a distinction picking up just the final 4-5 months of Lobdell run and Rocafort was long gone by then (his last full issue was 10, while 11 had a backup story) and as bad Gopez is, he was an stable artist something that Lobdell lacked during those final months (and really, the only good artists that Lobdell had was Kirkham, all the others only did a few pages by issue).

Another thing I've noticed on your argument is that you treat every issue as if the book were still looking for an audience when in reality Lobdell left an established fanbase (one willing to stick with the book despite the subpar art, constant derail by Tie-ins and controversies) putting Tynion on a very comfortable place where he only worry would be to increase the audience, and yet under his pen the book sunk like a rock (I mean, 6k lost on just three months)

And frankly, I don't found that aggregate site trustworthy since it lacks a definite criteria on the reviews it accepts and the issue info isn't accurate (it list Suayan as the artist for 19 for example).

How am I moving the goalposts? My whole argument is that Lobdell had better art than Tynion and I stand my that. Much better art in my opinion as the art on Tynion's run was quite rough. It's fine if you think Tynion had better art but I don't think he did.

Honestly, your counter points aren't really making sense. I don't think Tynion was put on the book in a comfortable place. He was put on it coming out of a major event and, in my opinion, had lesser creative teams to work with and didn't have more tie ins to help out his run too. It was the opposite of comfortable as people tend to use those big events as jumping off points. It was sort of similar to Soul's Swamp Thing run. He was put on the book after the big Rotworld event and while that book saw great reviews still, and Tynion's run saw reviews that were about a step down from Lobdell's, that book also had major decline because everyone used the event as a good jumping off point. Batgirl was the same with its decline coming off of DotF too I believe. If Lobdell had stayed the book would have still had big drops. Maybe not as big but I think they would have been close.

And I just showed you the numbers and their % drop and how they were similar. Even while Lobdell was on the book the book still had above average decline, but all those tie ins and things helped him out a lot. Like I said reason it looked like Tynion's run lost a lot is because of how the DotF tie ins, #0 issue, and the Robin Requiem issue all stopped the readers who would have left under normal circumstances (normal arcs and issues) because they wanted to stick around for the event and things. After that was finished they left in larger numbers but the book was still ahead of where it would have been if it wasn't for the events and tie ins. So some people that would have left under normal circumstances had things like DotF not happened stuck around for Tynion's run

And I think the review site is good at looking at how people consistently reading a book feel about it. I mean the people that were reviewing Lobdell's run were also reviewing Tynion's run. As you can see they viewed the two runs somewhat similarly. There wasn't this massive gap between them. It's just that you try to make Tynion's run seem like it was like Ann Nocenti's Catwoman run when it wasn't.

[DurararaFTW]

Even while Lobdell was on the book the book still had above average decline,

Above average decline compared to what exactly? Red Hood and the Outlaws, Red Lanterns and GL: New Guardians are the only new titles that made it this far.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

No, WTF month was cancelled and there was no promotion for it like with normal gimmicks. You need to look at the other DC books, like Flash, where the gate fold covers only increased sales by 1% and weren't impacted by the DotF crossover and the Robin Requiem issue. That would show you how successful the covers were generally.

While DC scrapped the WTF logo, they still went forward with the concept, really, if you don't believe that the fold out cover with a question isn't more of a gimmick that a little Requiem logo (Let's not forget that Suayan's original cover with Damian was scrapped leaving just the one with Jason on it) I don't know what to tell you, heck, the whole issue 19 was scrapped thanks to the leak from Suayan.

How am I moving the goalposts? My whole argument is that Lobdell had better art than Tynion and I stand my that. Much better art in my opinion as the art on Tynion's run was quite rough. It's fine if you think Tynion had better art but I don't think he did.

Honestly, your counter points aren't really making sense. I don't think Tynion was put on the book in a comfortable place. He was put on it coming out of a major event and, in my opinion, had lesser creative teams to work with and didn't have more tie ins to help out his run too. It was the opposite of comfortable as people tend to use those big events as jumping off points. It was sort of similar to Soul's Swamp Thing run. He was put on the book after the big Rotworld event and while that book saw great reviews still, and Tynion's run saw reviews that were about a step down from Lobdell's, that book also had major decline because everyone used the event as a good jumping off point. Batgirl was the same with its decline coming off of DotF too I believe. If Lobdell had stayed the book would have still had big drops. Maybe not as big but I think they would have been close.

And I just showed you the numbers and their % drop and how they were similar. Even while Lobdell was on the book the book still had above average decline, but all those tie ins and things helped him out a lot. Like I said reason it looked like Tynion's run lost a lot is because of how the DotF tie ins, #0 issue, and the Robin Requiem issue all stopped the readers who would have left under normal circumstances (normal arcs and issues) because they wanted to stick around for the event and things. After that was finished they left in larger numbers but the book was still ahead of where it would have been if it wasn't for the events and tie ins. So some people that would have left under normal circumstances had things like DotF not happened stuck around for Tynion's run

And I think the review site is good at looking at how people consistently reading a book feel about it. I mean the people that were reviewing Lobdell's run were also reviewing Tynion's run. As you can see they viewed the two runs somewhat similarly. There wasn't this massive gap between them. It's just that you try to make Tynion's run seem like it was like Ann Nocenti's Catwoman run when it wasn't.

You made a point on your original post to single out Lobdell's last five issues focusing just on the (alleged) gimmicks they saw, when I pointed out how Lobdell's art team was all over the place you brought Rocafort on the argument despite he being off the title since issue 11. The comparison with Swamp Thing doesn't work because ST was already bleeding reader thanks to Rot World. Soule was brought in to salvage the book and while he hasn't gotten Snyder's numbers the book has been stable under his watch (by the way, Batgirl has also keep its fanbase reporting numbers simlar to RHATO under Lobdell's pen).

If you're so sure that Lobdell only had gimmicks aiding him to get such numbers, how is then that Tynion's Zero Year tie in failed to break the 37k mark? Under your logic it should've been a sure seller, unless the book fanbase was losing interest and the criticism kept away a lot of potential customers that is.

Did you check the review agregator for single issue? There's only two or three stable reviewers on each issue, that's how it goes from 11 reviews on issue 6 to just 3 on issue 7 and the issues that have the same amount of reviews like 8 and 10 don't have the same reviewers, this fact is skewing badly the scores.

And as for your last point, if you go on the reception on this board, Tynion run was as bad as Nocenti's.

[kidstandout]

@dark i can vouch for that. anyone trying to claim otherwise, see the fight with shiva lol.

[oasis1313]

I think Shiva is over-rated.

[TheDarkKnightReturns]

I think Shiva is over-rated.

Care to explain as to why ?

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

So, Jason origin was pretty damn awesome. It didn't retcon anything and it just expanded upon things many have been wondering about, Jason and Bruce did have a fallout before Jason were killed, the WEIRDEST thing though is that Jason is still resurrected by cosmic events and then healed by the Pit, the All Caste is still canon while the League bull isn't, Lobdell NAILED why Jason took the Red Hood mantle and this

http://imgur.com/mH9mVTH

Should answer those wondering why Jason keeps helping Bruce, really pleased with this.

[oasis1313]

Care to explain as to why ?

Yeah, she's supposed to make everybody start biting their nail at the mention of her name, but I don't see anything out of her beyond your typical generic comic book female assassin.

[Aioros22]

So, Jason origin was pretty damn awesome. It didn't retcon anything and it just expanded upon things many have been wondering about, Jason and Bruce did have a fallout before Jason were killed, the WEIRDEST thing though is that Jason is still resurrected by cosmic events and then healed by the Pit, the All Caste is still canon while the League bull isn't, Lobdell NAILED why Jason took the Red Hood mantle and this

http://imgur.com/mH9mVTH

Should answer those wondering why Jason keeps helping Bruce, really pleased with this.

He`s helping because he feels he should, to me that is imperative. As long it`s not because of emotional management towards Bruce, it`s fine. "I`m not a kid. I`m not Robin" hell yeah!

The cosmic stuff, thought? Was is it detailed, explained, or is it Jason kind of wondering in his own POV over what happened?

I feel that part is unecessary, especially post reboot. But the Morrison mindset on editorial at hinting the Multiverse with "everything counts" wouldn`t probably rule it out.

[DurararaFTW]

We already knew that the lazarus pit and Talia weren't responsible for his initial resurrection since Red Hood and the Outlaws 3 or something.

[Daredevil is Legend]

I think Shiva is over-rated.

Lady Shiva has been getting jobbed out for awhile now.Nothing to fear imo

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

He`s helping because he feels he should, to me that is imperative. As long it`s not because of emotional management towards Bruce, it`s fine. "I`m not a kid. I`m not Robin" hell yeah!

The cosmic stuff, thought? Was is it detailed, explained, or is it Jason kind of wondering in his own POV over what happened?

I feel that part is unecessary, especially post reboot. But the Morrison mindset on editorial at hinting the Multiverse with "everything counts" wouldn`t probably rule it out.

The way I read the scene is that Jason's helping because he can, not because he feels obliged to. And the last part about the Outlaw seem to imply that he will help but on his own terms.

The cosmic stuff:

http://imgur.com/mbmHTu9

Is pretty much a condensed version of Winick's scene on Batman Annual 25, I said cosmic stuff since while is obvious they're referencing Prime I doubt he exists anymore.