Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

People needs to accept the fact that NO ONE WILL EVER KILL THE JOKER. Is just not profitable and DC is first and foremost a business, so hanging into the idea that Jason shouldn't speak/work with Bruce due the Joker being alive is delusional and clinging to a creative dead end.

Saying that Jason is NIghtwing with guns is frankly dumb and only shows that people hasn't bothered to read RHATO or Pak's work with Jason. Other than the mandatory crossover of the past few years and the massive trainwreck that Tynion's run was, Jason hasn't acted with the Batfamily at all on his title (hell, RHATO was even moved to the JL solicits this month), Pak wrote Jason and Bruce relationship as one of convenience with Bruce looking Jason because he was willing to do the dirty work. Eternal is a trainwreck where everyone is out of character but thankfully Jason has been written off it for the time being.

Roy and Kory are so different on the N52 and their relationship with Dick is so insignificant that is also absurd to get hung up on the "but the are Dick's friends" mindset. And finally, let's wait for Jason to show on any other media first before playing the "Under the Red Hood" depiction card.

[darkseidpwns]

DC still doesn't know what to do with Jason. Not really. And so he has basically just defaulted into Nightwing with guns.

And as for Punisher-esque Jason and that ship sailing. The problem with that is that if Jason ever does appear in other media, its probably going to be that Under the Red Hood/Punisher-esque Jason. So that ship is probably only going to sail for so long before its brought back into port.

Agreed,while the New-52 has made him likable he still barely has anything of his own. The only mythology behind Todd is the All-Caste and they're just another in a long list of forgettable groups,the rest is borrowed from other characters,mostly Dick but not just him solely. Now he's gonna deal with a venom addiction,if I wanted to read that story I'd rather go through Venom and Vengeance of Bane 2. Todd is a derivative character,some even call him a parasite character. The Punisher angle is the best for him but it needs to be executed better,BTFC and Nightwing were terrible for Jason.

[oasis1313]

People needs to accept the fact that NO ONE WILL EVER KILL THE JOKER. Is just not profitable and DC is first and foremost a business, so hanging into the idea that Jason shouldn't speak/work with Bruce due the Joker being alive is delusional and clinging to a creative dead end.

Saying that Jason is NIghtwing with guns is frankly dumb and only shows that people hasn't bothered to read RHATO or Pak's work with Jason. Other than the mandatory crossover of the past few years and the massive trainwreck that Tynion's run was, Jason hasn't acted with the Batfamily at all on his title (hell, RHATO was even moved to the JL solicits this month), Pak wrote Jason and Bruce relationship as one of convenience with Bruce looking Jason because he was willing to do the dirty work. Eternal is a trainwreck where everyone is out of character but thankfully Jason has been written off it for the time being.

Roy and Kory are so different on the N52 and their relationship with Dick is so insignificant that is also absurd to get hung up on the "but the are Dick's friends" mindset. And finally, let's wait for Jason to show on any other media first before playing the "Under the Red Hood" depiction card.

"Delusional", "dumb", "absurd". My, what fancy words. Everyone here (except you, of course) is merely a simple comic book geek, but I do appreciate the presence of a licensed psychiatrist in our midst--someone who can tell us all about our faults because of his vast medical training and expert opinions. Of course DC will never kill off the cash cow called the Joker, but it's a WISH that I and others have every right to express. The moderators have deleted many, many posts which have been FAR less abusive than yours.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Agreed,while the New-52 has made him likable he still barely has anything of his own. The only mythology behind Todd is the All-Caste and they're just another in a long list of forgettable groups,the rest is borrowed from other characters,mostly Dick but not just him solely. Now he's gonna deal with a venom addiction,if I wanted to read that story I'd rather go through Venom and Vengeance of Bane 2. Todd is a derivative character,some even call him a parasite character. The Punisher angle is the best for him but it needs to be executed better,BTFC and Nightwing were terrible for Jason.

Do you realize you're contradicting yourself, right? You're saying that Jason is a derivative character and accusing him of just lifting aspects from other sources and then you say that the Punisher angle is the best for him (therefore lifting aspects from another character). Make your mind.

While is true that the Venom has been cheapened as plot point of late, Jason's unique characteristics allow for a very interesting story and gives a new angle to Jason's characterization.

The All-Caste were a great source of stories and an angle with tons of potential but sadly Tynion poisoned that well with his nonsense

[Dzetoun]

People needs to accept the fact that NO ONE WILL EVER KILL THE JOKER. Is just not profitable and DC is first and foremost a business, so hanging into the idea that Jason shouldn't speak/work with Bruce due the Joker being alive is delusional and clinging to a creative dead end.

Saying that Jason is NIghtwing with guns is frankly dumb and only shows that people hasn't bothered to read RHATO or Pak's work with Jason. Other than the mandatory crossover of the past few years and the massive trainwreck that Tynion's run was, Jason hasn't acted with the Batfamily at all on his title (hell, RHATO was even moved to the JL solicits this month), Pak wrote Jason and Bruce relationship as one of convenience with Bruce looking Jason because he was willing to do the dirty work. Eternal is a trainwreck where everyone is out of character but thankfully Jason has been written off it for the time being.

Roy and Kory are so different on the N52 and their relationship with Dick is so insignificant that is also absurd to get hung up on the "but the are Dick's friends" mindset. And finally, let's wait for Jason to show on any other media first before playing the "Under the Red Hood" depiction card.

Sigh. Powerful as UTRH was as a story, it was arguably a strategic mistake for precisely the reason you point out. It basically asks a question that has no business being asked, at least not in that way and in that context, and in so doing injects a poisonous controversy into the master BatVerse narrative. At the least UTRH needed a second act to take the issue off the table again, a second act it never got.

As far as Joker goes, I think DC understands they are in a corner, or at least Snyder does. They have a character they can't kill for financial reasons, but who the rules of narrative and characterization, or just plain believability, say should have been dead long ago (and probably resurrected, but that is another tale). In terms of Jason, though, it does seeming they have been playing catchup, with the writers for years moving behind the curve of reader interpretation. Once again, arguably one problem with UTRH is that Winick honestly didn't think he was writing the character that people read. He has over time used words like "psychotic scoundrel," "self-absorbed killer," and the like to describe Jason, which is not how many people were reacting to the character even in 2005.

As far as characterization in Eternal versus RHATO versus anywhere else ... that is a long and bloody battle.

[Aioros22]

Jason shouldn't have to be psychotic; I'd just have him do his own thing and not go crawling back to Gotham every time Bruce whistles.

When did he came back "crawiling every time Bruce whistle?"

Night of Owls = Jason was on the road to Gotham to deal Untitled business when he received Alfred`s emergency beacon.

Death of The Family = Jason was with someone else when he was targetted by the Joker.

Eternal = Jason is seen somewhere knowing about the whole business with Gordon and then gets a call from Bruce to help in that very same situation.

I haven`t seen Jason acting like a lapdog in any single crossover appearance to date. The only time he comes directly to Gotham because Bruce asks was in Eternal and Jason pretty much shut his pie hole the moment the old man started rambling another lecture about broken Windows, despite being the one needing help.

The other times he stayed in Gotham a bit more was in the aftermaths of these crossovers, talking with the Family because of something (like Damian`s death, Barbara`s ethical struggle, wtv). Which, storytelling wise is exactly the kind of stuff you can write Jason in because it always gives that vibe of "you cant really come back home" from him. And that`s a powerful story tool to use if you can.

A black sheep is not someone who turns on the family to screw themselves when they are in the sink. The balance is that Jason isn`t a looney anymore. He is his own man and a man will help when the **** hits it. Deep down that kid is still there and respects what Batman does - he just doesn`t agree with how he does it. Deep down he may still like Gotham I can assume, it just doesn`t do it for him any longer "the world is alot bigger than Gotham Barbara" (Eternal).

Everytime the family time is over all I see is him and his buds hit the road and get back to their own stuff, be it on Earth or space. Who else do you have doing that now? If anything, compared to before, the family at large and Bruce in particular are more needy of him as a wild-card.

[Aioros22]

DC still doesn't know what to do with Jason. Not really. And so he has basically just defaulted into Nightwing with guns.

That`s the vaguest thing you can say on this matter and I believe, for a reason.

He`s "basically" Nightwing with guns. Except when he isn`t, which is pretty much all the time. He doesn`t act or think like Dick. You are mistaking the inherent decency of all the Robins in working for the greater good and not going into especifics to the "why" and "how". Just in his recente appearance in RATHO he left a city under martial law because his business was done.

Dick and Tim aren`t adventurers/mercenary types. Jason is.

DC has been extremely smart and cautious with Jason since the reboot hit and it shows by merit of having appearances in 3 different titles, with sligthly different approaches but all similar in thematic of the character. Never before you had that type of flexibility with him.

And as for Punisher-esque Jason and that ship sailing. The problem with that is that if Jason ever does appear in other media, its probably going to be that Under the Red Hood/Punisher-esque Jason. So that ship is probably only going to sail for so long before its brought back into port.

Sure, as long they bring the tone of that one story, it should.

But a videogame or an animated featured movie isn`t a monthly plataform for the character.

Agreed,while the New-52 has made him likable he still barely has anything of his own. The only mythology behind Todd is the All-Caste and they're just another in a long list of forgettable groups,the rest is borrowed from other characters,mostly Dick but not just him solely.

Todd`s mythology includes his already known street origin, the death of his mother and connection to Joker that nobody else got, street gangs, Talia, Al-Caste and the Untitled. His connection to some Titans aren`t a thing of the New52, Jason was a member of the group in two major arcs in the 80`s. One of the Titans he end up knowing best was Roy.

That`s far more backstory than Tim or Dick in the reboot and using elements that were set before.

Now he's gonna deal with a venom addiction,if I wanted to read that story I'd rather go through Venom and Vengeance of Bane 2. Todd is a derivative character,some even call him a parasite character. The Punisher angle is the best for him but it needs to be executed better,BTFC and Nightwing were terrible for Jason.

Yeah those stories were terrible (and they were) but the Punisher angle done right....is kind of what you have. He kills and targets groups that have gone from mystical treaths (RATHO), slave trade children (Eternal) alien invasions (Action/RATHO), arm dealers (RATHO), etc. Jason and his acolites are listed as potential threats on the FBI and other government organizations. At the minimal sign of them going rogue (Future`s End) they are all on his tail. The reason they haven`t is because unlike before, Jason isn`t a (borderline) villain and his actions end up helping saving lives, which is why Batman and by default the JL vouch for him.

That, ladies and gents, is called having a balance in character.

[darkseidpwns]

Do you realize you're contradicting yourself, right? You're saying that Jason is a derivative character and accusing him of just lifting aspects from other sources and then you say that the Punisher angle is the best for him (therefore lifting aspects from another character). Make your mind.

While is true that the Venom has been cheapened as plot point of late, Jason's unique characteristics allow for a very interesting story and gives a new angle to Jason's characterization.

The All-Caste were a great source of stories and an angle with tons of potential but sadly Tynion poisoned that well with his nonsense

The Batmythos didn't have a character like Punisher running around,I mean even 90's Nightwing borrowed a lot from Daredevil,the trope may be cliched but Jason still had his own unique corner in Batman's world.

[darkseidpwns]

That`s the vaguest thing you can say on this matter and I believe, for a reason.

He`s "basically" Nightwing with guns. Except when he isn`t, which is pretty much all the time. He doesn`t act or think like Dick. You are mistaking the inherent decency of all the Robins in working for the greater good and not going into especifics to the "why" and "how". Just in his recente appearance in RATHO he left a city under martial law because his business was done.

Dick and Tim aren`t adventurers/mercenary types. Jason is.

DC has been extremely smart and cautious with Jason since the reboot hit and it shows by merit of having appearances in 3 different titles, with sligthly different approaches but all similar in thematic of the character. Never before you had that type of flexibility with him.



Sure, as long they bring the tone of that one story, it should.

But a videogame or an animated featured movie isn`t a monthly plataform for the character.



Todd`s mythology includes his already known street origin, the death of his mother and connection to Joker that nobody else got, street gangs, Talia, Al-Caste and the Untitled. His connection to some Titans aren`t a thing of the New52, Jason was a member of the group in two major arcs in the 80`s. One of the Titans he end up knowing best was Roy.

That`s far more backstory than Tim or Dick in the reboot and using elements that were set before.



Yeah those stories were terrible (and they were) but the Punisher angle done right....is kind of what you have. He kills and targets groups that have gone from mystical treaths (RATHO), slave trade children (Eternal) alien invasions (Action/RATHO), arm dealers (RATHO), etc. Jason and his acolites are listed as potential threats on the FBI and other government organizations. At the minimal sign of them going rogue (Future`s End) they are all on his tail. The reason they haven`t is because unlike before, Jason isn`t a (borderline) villain and his actions end up helping saving lives, which is why Batman and by default the JL vouch for him.

That, ladies and gents, is called having a balance in character.

Obviously no one can get his origin,which btw has been heavily modified in the New-52 and really isn't anything special either,and I already acknowledged the All-Caste. Talia and the Titans however are NOT Jasons, they belong to Ra's/Damian and Dick. No one thinks of Todd while discussing those characters,his stint with the Titans was brief and was never brought up,not even in the New-52,his relationship with Talia is vague and a jumbled mess to boot.

[phonogram12]

People needs to accept the fact that NO ONE WILL EVER KILL THE JOKER. Is just not profitable and DC is first and foremost a business, so hanging into the idea that Jason shouldn't speak/work with Bruce due the Joker being alive is delusional and clinging to a creative dead end.

I've been saying this for the longest time. DC/WB liking money will trump everything else every time. Scream it at the top of your lungs for as long as you want, but that ain't ever going to change and is (quite frankly) a complete waste of breath.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

The Batmythos didn't have a character like Punisher running around,I mean even 90's Nightwing borrowed a lot from Daredevil,the trope may be cliched but Jason still had his own unique corner in Batman's world.

Problem is that you critic rings hollow when it can resumed as "I'll only accept Jason when he's aping the aspects I like"

Obviously no one can get his origin,which btw has been heavily modified in the New-52 and really isn't anything special either,and I already acknowledged the All-Caste. Talia and the Titans however are NOT Jasons, they belong to Ra's/Damian and Dick. No one thinks of Todd while discussing those characters,his stint with the Titans was brief and was never brought up,not even in the New-52,his relationship with Talia is vague and a jumbled mess to boot.

And that is how it should be, Talia was just a mean to bring back Jason. Lobdell understands this and that's the reason for her only getting two appearances and some mentions under his pen. The All Caste is what is important for Jason and what it makes unique on the N52. Sadly, Tynion missed this point completely (as he did with Jason) and he didn't wrote Jason, he wrote a frankestein of a character that he used as standi-in for Dick.

[Aioros22]

Obviously no one can get his origin..

Well, then it`s unique among this grooup of characters. It has been borrowed to his "brothers" in other media too, so..

..which btw has been heavily modified in the New-52 and really isn't anything special either,

It hasn`t, really. They haven`t shown him stealing the tires but that was merely a small snipe of Jason`s larger issue in living in the streets. He still did. His father was still a criminal who went to jail and died somewhere since he never showed up. He took care of his mother until an illeness took her and then started stealing to survive.

They only added layers to what was there. It`s more controversial now with the Joker, Talia and gangs mixed into it.

and I already acknowledged the All-Caste...

Ok, good. And the Untitled, since Jason fell in love with someone from that group when training with the Al Caste, so he`s got history there.

Talia and the Titans however are NOT Jasons, they belong to Ra's/Damian and Dick.

The Outlaws aren`t the Titans. This is the least original hook to his character now but it`s not part of his origin, it`s added lore. If you can enjoy Deathstroke becoming a nemesis of Batman and Arrow despite being created to face the Titans, you shouldn`t have an issue with Talia`s connection to Jay, which started(was alllured to) before Damian was created, back when Hush was still kicking.

No one thinks of Todd while discussing those characters,.

You just referenced these characters while discussing Jason Todd.

his stint with the Titans was brief and was never brought up,.

His stint with the Titans led to two major storyarcs on the Titans at the time, the bigger one being saving Dick, Raven and her mother from Brother`s Blood Church and shut it down. If you`re looking for "brief" you might be thinking of Batman, Superman and some others in the same arc who barely showed up but were there to sell how big the national treath was. Those stints were the groundwork for his relationship (actual one) with Donna pre-new52 on "Countdown" and his friendship with Roy (new52). Jason`s stint was referenced on Titans after his death, when the Titans were relaunched years ago with the original team in a mini featuring Wolfman and Jimenez and again just before the reboot when Jason fought Tim in the Tower.

If you haven`t read them, you can`t go wrong with Barreto and Gammill on art.

By the way, some (if not "the") original appearances from Jason Todd (both pre and post Crisis) were done by Wolfman/Perez in "Teen Titans" and "Crisis".

not even in the New-52.

In the New52, Dick, Jason, Kory and Roy were never part of Titans.

his relationship with Talia is vague and a jumbled mess to boot.

"Red Hood: The lost years" and RATHO aren`t that vague. Psychologically challenging maybe?

[Daredevil is Legend]

Nice to see this place is still active

[Daredevil is Legend]

What does everybody think will happen to Jason in the Convergence mini series?

[JasonTodd428]

What does everybody think will happen to Jason in the Convergence mini series?

Probably something that will make fans of the psychotic, Bat Family hatin' version of Jason Todd happy. For myself it might be interesting to see Father Todd again or perhaps a version of Jason from some Earth other than the main pre-reboot Earth. Wasn't there an Earth in Countdown where Jason was Batman? That could be interesting.