Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Aioros22]

I mean it isn't a surprise that people prefer UtRH representation of Jason. For most people, they only know of prefer one version of a character. I mean some on the Injustice 2 reactions/ excitement was just based on that one movie. People have preferences and if a character arc changes it, then It's perfectly reasonable not to like it. I mean I prefer old Harley who was villain with a twisted relationship with Joker. Some people prefer her now as a quirky anti hero or whatever. Neither group is wrong. Same applies to Jason.

I didn`t mention it to be wrong.

I`m asking how would you pick that depiction and write the character in ongoing format.

[Aioros22]

That`s me basically just being curious, I find pitches interesting

[Alycat]

It would take a really good and consistent writer. Trying to think to a character that the situation applies to first.Death stroke maybe?

[RedBird]

Dick aged up too. Tim Seeley posted on twitter that Dick is 23.

Oh, interesting, well if we assume Jason WAS 19 then yeah, hell he may have just aged up. But like Dark_Tzitzimine mentioned his age is kind of an enigma and thanks to the 5 year timeline, it has been up in the air for a while. Hopefully by the end of Rebirth we may gain a more definitive answer depending on how they "fix" the time problem, those "lost years" have been mentioned enough that I'm sure a new or more definitive timeline/continuity may appear to help resolve such questions.

Even in postcrisis, I just assumed Jason was anywhere between 19 - 21, he's kind of fortunate enough that the reboot didnt SEEM to change that aspect too much.
HOWEVER, in this case I'm kind of hoping his age hasnt been changed or pushed up as of yet. If, for example we accept the current hypothetical age of 19, with Dicks age now being 23, it at least helps to space out the age gap between him and Dick, making it a bit more like the post crisis age gap which was about 6-7 years. Hell if Tim can stay in the magical land of 16-17 years old for over a decade I dont see why this would be a problem.

[Dominick1216]

Oh, interesting, well if we assume Jason WAS 19 then yeah, hell he may have just aged up. But like Dark_Tzitzimine mentioned his age is kind of an enigma and thanks to the 5 year timeline, it has been up in the air for a while. Hopefully by the end of Rebirth we may gain a more definitive answer depending on how they "fix" the time problem, those "lost years" have been mentioned enough that I'm sure a new or more definitive timeline/continuity may appear to help resolve such questions.

Even in postcrisis, I just assumed Jason was anywhere between 19 - 21, he's kind of fortunate enough that the reboot didnt SEEM to change that aspect too much.
HOWEVER, in this case I'm kind of hoping his age hasnt been changed or pushed up as of yet. If, for example we accept the current hypothetical age of 19, with Dicks age now being 23, it at least helps to space out the age gap between him and Dick, making it a bit more like the post crisis age gap which was about 6-7 years. Hell if Tim can stay in the magical land of 16-17 years old for over a decade I dont see why this would be a problem.

It does help if Jason does end up being 19. Let's say that Rebirth actually makes the 15-year timeline come true. Bruce would become Batman at 25 during Year Zero (2001). Dick would probably become Robin when he was probably 12-13, so Years 4-5 (2005-2006), then Jason would probably become Robin at 13, so Year 9 (2010). If Jason was only two years younger than Dick, like he was in New 52, then their tenures as Robin would be way shorter than usual. So, it does work if they're are at least four years apart from each other.

[Aahz]

If you by the post cisis comics, Jason is actually not much older than Tim, if Tim is really still only 16, it doesn't make much sense for Jason to be older than 17 or 18. Even 19 would be to old.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I mean it isn't a surprise that people prefer UtRH representation of Jason. For most people, they only know of prefer one version of a character. I mean some on the Injustice 2 reactions/ excitement was just based on that one movie. People have preferences and if a character arc changes it, then It's perfectly reasonable not to like it. I mean I prefer old Harley who was villain with a twisted relationship with Joker. Some people prefer her now as a quirky anti hero or whatever. Neither group is wrong. Same applies to Jason.

Considering that going to the Jason Todd and Red Hood tag on tumblr brings you like six works based on RHATO against two based on UTRH, I'd argue the OG RHATO incarnation of Jason is by far the most widely known nowadays.

To not mention that after being on many different discussion boards about Jason I've seen that the trend with people who asks for UTRH are those who either didn't liked RHATO or downright refused to read it. So yeah.

[RedBird]

Is the distaste for this incarnation of Jason coming from the fact that he is in a team book? I think Jasons development may just come off as somewhat backwards to anyone who considers him a lone wolf type of character.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

That is part of the reasons but simply look at the previous posts on this thread, the main complaint is that Jason has lost "his edge"

What does that edge entails exactly, varies to person to person though.

The funny thing about Jason being a lone wolf is that is not entirely true. URTH has him leading a criminal empire, his next appearance has him trying to team up with Mia on GA, then you have him trying the team up thing again with Dick on Nightwing, Lost Days had him being supported and working with Talia, Countdown gave us a proto Outlaws in the Challengers of the Unknown, Morrison gave him an actual sidekick on Scarlet, Jason tried to team up with Tim twice before Flashpoint, his beef with the TT is not being acknowledged as one.

If anything, Jason has always been wanting to be part of something.

[RedBird]

Agreed

If Jason was basically punisher lite, a complete aloof lone wolf, then yeah, it would make more sense in the grand scheme of things if he had a solo book first and then slowly developed friendships/relationships till the idea of him fighting alongside a team of other heroes or antiheroes wouldnt sound so off. But Lobdell is making it clear he is not another punisher and personally I'm kinda glad. He makes it pretty clear that Jasons outcast status isnt necessarily desirable, not even to Jason himself. The sort of "lone wolf" shtick that we usually see with heroes/antiheroes who purposefully isolate themselves and then proceed to brood because I guess its been defined as "cool" and "edgy", is avoided here. (That same thing made Batman the semi joke that he is currently in pop culture) Instead we get a more realistic and humanized depiction of just how crushing that kind of true isolation can be. Its a nice subversion to the usual badass anti hero tropes.

You mention some great arcs where he does desire to be part of something again, and I'll add this, during pre52 the teen titans issue where Jason beats up Tim, at the very end he straight out even ponders if he may have been a better person if he had the opportunity to develop friendships like Tim had. If the previous attempts at teamups weren't clear then that sense of loss and longing is certainly displayed there. Lobdell seems to be treating Jasons character as both a robin and the red hood, which includes giving him chances to develop within a team in ways he didnt previously get to, just like all the previous robins who had their own teen titan groups to better establish their presence within the community.

[Aahz]

That is part of the reasons but simply look at the previous posts on this thread, the main complaint is that Jason has lost "his edge"

I think thats in his own book more a problem with the tone of the book than with his personality. RHatO is (despite having techinically higher rating than the other Batbooks) just not that dark.

When he appears in other Batbooks he is really not that edgy. I really hope that the Annual where he teams up with Dick can fix that a little bit.

[Aioros22]

Yeah, I don`t agree with that one bit.

We`re talking of a book that touches lines like this one:



and deals themes of isolation, death, traumas, etc. You had a moment where the main character is basically considering killing a "child" because of how potential dangerous he can be. You`ve had two issues of Jason going the deep end and confronting himself getting wacked and murderedd and aknowledging he couldn`t do anything about it. I have a feeling some only consider something edgy if it envolves bloodbath or fighting coreography. I have the belief that something can be psychologically edgy and not many Batman books so far has been more than RATHO with Nigthwing and King`s run coming a second place in some sequences but those are more subverted on that approach.



Aye, RATHO got upbeat moments to balance but they`re there exactly to contrast and have the characters stand up to the dark.

[G-Potion]

[dietrich]

Yeah, I don`t agree with that one bit.

We`re talking of a book that touches lines like this one:



and deals themes of isolation, death, traumas, etc. You had a moment where the main character is basically considering killing a "child" because of how potential dangerous he can be. You`ve had two issues of Jason going the deep end and confronting himself getting wacked and murderedd and aknowledging he couldn`t do anything about it. I have a feeling some only consider something edgy if it envolves bloodbath or fighting coreography. I have the belief that something can be psychologically edgy and not many Batman books so far has been more than RATHO with Nigthwing and King`s run coming a second place in some sequences but those are more subverted on that approach.



Aye, RATHO got upbeat moments to balance but they`re there exactly to contrast and have the characters stand up to the dark.

That's pretty much what they mean when they say edgy. A lot of people deal with trauma, isolation, depression, thought of dying/suicide in their personal lives. And mental health issues are pretty much common place these days as is talking about such things openly so stories dealing with them as good as they are aren't seen as edgy anymore.

Killing and a person who kills is not part of most people's lives or something they've done or experienced. It is not the norm so it edgy. Some folks just want to see him killing and doing something that is very different from what the rest of the bat clan do.

[Aioros22]

That's pretty much what they mean when they say edgy. A lot of people deal with trauma, isolation, depression, thought of dying/suicide in their personal lives. And mental health issues are pretty much common place these days as is talking about such things openly so stories dealing with them as good as they are aren't seen as edgy anymore.

Killing and a person who kills is not part of most people's lives or something they've done or experienced. It is not the norm so it edgy. Some folks just want to see him killing and doing something that is very different from what the rest of the bat clan do.

Maybe is just me but is it really common ground on other titles? King mentions Bruce suicidial touches (it was the arc`s title after all) but he did to parallell Bane`s. It was there but he didn`t went beyond that. You have Nigthwing with horror slash touches with Doltrons (spl) and the like but the edge here is visual. This was true with the New52 launch too. RATHO was more upbeat, a buddy movie summer blockbuster if you will but the darkest thing outside Jason`s encounters with Joker (DOTF, Fallout, Origins) was Damian`s death under Morrison`s INC (of which Jason was also a main) and Tomasi`s dealing with Bruce`s psyche (of which the issue with Jason is bar none the darkest outside the one with Aquaman where Bruce recovers Damian`s corpse - with visual horror in contrast, funny how it goes..).

I get it, Edgy can certainly take more than one form but regardless, RATHO has been one of the darkest titles of the line since Rebirth and clearly more than it used to be. That said I`m not against the creative team pushing the envelope further..