Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Aahz]

Pointing Loedbell`s take for how meh Eternal (as the most mentioned example) was, strikes me as dramatic for dramas sake. Wasn`t Dick`s participation in the second Eternal a gigantic meh for you too?

He had at least some cool moments through out the series and took down mother in the end, after she one shotted all the other Robins. It wasn't that great but still way better than what Jason got.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Nightwing's participation in the 2nd Eternal was quite bad, but he nevertheless wasn't just there in the background like Jason was and continues to be in Bat events and appearances. You might not like hearing this but honestly what is a redeemed Jason's purpose, and what are other writers suppose to do with him in Bat events that make him or his current direction stand out more? All I was saying is that what initially made Red Hood stand out before they have moved him away from since the New 52.

Redeemed Jason is the Batman character that travels all over the world helping people with no regards for rules or whatever personal consequences would bring on him as result. That is something that was literally shown by the Who's Artemis? arc. As for what writers should be doing?

Simple, writing him as an actual character and not one that is just there to fill space. He can work with the family without the need to be glued to the hip of them. Jason is a leader, not a follower.

[JasonTodd428]

Nightwing's participation in the 2nd Eternal was quite bad, but he nevertheless he wasn't just there in the background like Jason was and continues to be in Bat events and appearances. You might not like hearing this but honestly what is a redeemed Jason's purpose, and what are other writers suppose to do with him in Bat events that make him or his current direction stand out more. What initially made Red Hood stand out before they have moved him away from since the New 52.

Honestly everything about the 2nd Eternal was bad and I don't think anyone came out of that looking particularly well.

A one note character isn't really one that is interesting even if the premise behind them is though and that's what Pre-FP Jason ended up being. Do you honestly believe that if Jason were to revert to his Pre-FL self tomorrow that the Bat office would suddenly know exactly what to do with him? I don't believe that for a second. They'd be just as lost about what to do with him in those circumstance as they have always been. It would be the same thing as we have now only with a bit more blood and action involved.

Like I said the problem isn't with how the character is now its with the way writers elect to handle him. They seem to be wanting to treat him with kid gloves for the moment because they are either afraid to commit to an honest attempt at using him or they are afraid that if they should do so then fans will jump all over them if "the failure Robin" looks as competent or better at something as the other "Good Robins".

As for what writers can do with him in Bat events?

They could do actual research on the character, find out his skill set and how he works in his own book before using him in their stories.

They could treat him like an actual, fully fleshed out character instead of one dimensional window dressing.

They could stop trying to make him a one note character whose only use is as the muscle or the comic relief.

[TheCape]

I thinkt that Jason works redeemed just fine, but i don't think that he should go back with the Batfamily, he is a man with his own code that clash with Bruce's so went to his own way in the world. Hell, i think that he work better working with more morally grey people in general.

Honestly everything about the 2nd Eternal was bad and I don't think anyone came out of that looking particularly well.

I particuralry dislike Dicks charactherization there

[G-Potion]

That kind of mindset regarding character role/purpose is exactly what churned out mediocrity like both Eternals. Everyone has to fit a role instead of letting the characters lead the story course. Whether Jason is an antagonist or a hero, his skillset remains there and a smart writer would write accordingly.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

The problem is not Jason working with Bruce or any other member of the Batfamily. The problem is that other than Lobdell, Pak and maybe Higgins, they still write Jason as a sidekick, as completely supporting character. Always following the lead of someone else, not really having any voice on his own or a decent showing as fighter, strategist or cunning.

As you point out, Jason is his own man and should be treated as such on crossovers.

[G-Potion]

I particuralry dislike Dicks charactherization there

Same. For all the spotlight that he has over the other robins in both War and Eternal, he came out less likable.

[JasonTodd428]

I thinkt that Jason works redeemed just fine, but i don't think that he should go back with the Batfamily, he is a man with his own code that clash with Bruce's so went to his own way in the world. Hell, i think that he work better working with more morally grey people in general.

I agree but with this caveat. I do think he should be willing and ready to help the Bats out in cases of extreme need or in cases where he is the only one capable of doing what is needed. Outside of those times though I think the character works better away from Gotham and with his own team. I don't think that he needs to be attached at the hip to the Bats.

I particuralry dislike Dicks charactherization there

Yeah, that was a huge turn off for me as well.

[TheCape]

Yeah, that was a huge turn off for me as well.

To be honest i'm not fond of Dick since Grayson, Eternal just showed part of those problems in a more obvious way.

[Darkspellmaster]

I always saw Jason as more of a field leader then anything else. A good example, Roy from the YJ series. He can be his own man, but also work with others, only they have to be willing to bend the rules or break them depending on situations.

[EMarie]

As for what writers can do with him in Bat events?

They could do actual research on the character, find out his skill set and how he works in his own book before using him in their stories.

They could treat him like an actual, fully fleshed out character instead of one dimensional window dressing.

They could stop trying to make him a one note character whose only use is as the muscle or the comic relief.

Agreed. It frustrates me greatly when writers don't bother to research the characters their writing. You can tell in the writing and editorial doesn't bother to correct it. I really respect writers that make the effort whether it's reading up on them or asking their solo writer about it. I used to be thrilled by the idea of Jason showing up in bat event or other books. Now I look at the writers and sometimes wait to hear how Jason was written before getting the book.

[Alycat]

To be honest i'm not fond of Dick since Grayson, Eternal just showed part of those problems in a more obvious way.

This is a Jason thread of course, but I'm curious about what problems you mean about Dick.

[TheCape]

This is a Jason thread of course, but I'm curious about what problems you mean about Dick.

I know that is an unnpopular opinion here, but my favorite Dick Grayson came from what Wolfman, Dixon did with him and i think that Tomasi and Morrison did a very good when they continued with that vision in their respective works with the characther (Winnick too, at least in the "Long Shadows" arc), Higgins series was mediocre in many aspects, but even him continued with that template. Grayson has kind of started this idea that Dick is more impulsive and a bit of a womanizer, wich also led to that dumb line speaked by Jason of "Dick was never much of a detective" in the second Eternal series, it feel like FanonDick suddenly became canon for me.
Grayson is not a horrible series by any means, the world building around Spyral is interesting, Helena and Tiger are pretty fun characthers and there some moments for Richard in that series that are pretty good (his conversations with Bruce are the best part of the run). but i don't like what it came out of it, the new series has improved a bit, but is not quite there yet.

Sorry for the tangent, i promise that i would speak more about Jason next time, i really had to give my opinion of the guy.

[Alycat]

I wish Dick could be as free from the batfamily( like he used to) as much as Jason gets to be. Which is the opposite of what I think Tim and Damian should be. That said I also have no problem with Jason being in Gotham and just not around Batman. Kinda like Babs is.

I know that is an unnpopular opinion here, but my favorite Dick Grayson came from what Wolfman, Dixon did with him and i think that Tomasi and Morrison did a very good when they continued with that vision in their respective works with the characther (Winnick too, at least in the "Long Shadows" arc), Higgins series was mediocre in many aspect, but even him continued with that template. Grayson has kind of started this idead that Dick is more impulsive and a bit of a womanizer, wich also led to that dumb like speaked by Jason of "Dick was never much of a detective" in the second Eternal series, it feel like FanonDick suddenly became canon for me.
Grayson is not a horrible series by any means, the world building around Spyral is interesting, Helena and Tiger are pretty fun characther and there some moments for Richard in that series that are pretty good (his conversations with Bruce are the best part of the series). but i don't like what it came out of it, the new series has improved a bit, but is not quite there yet.

Sorry for the tangents, i promise that i would speak more about Jason next time, i really had to give my opinion of the guy.

No need to be sorry! I was just curious and you explained your point well. Nothing wrong with having a preference.

[Aioros22]

He had at least some cool moments through out the series and took down mother in the end, after she one shotted all the other Robins. It wasn't that great but still way better than what Jason got.

So did Jason. Dick was basically bitched by Cass whereas Jay had the advantage on her twice in a row. If you ask me which I prefer I think you know.

Nobody is going to remember that Z rated villain in the coming years.