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  1. #7006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Yeah but he could for example have used Dick's perspective in this Annual to show a much more positive point of view.
    You cling so hard on what you perceive to be negative treatment for the character that you can`t see the positive in Dick`s words.

    a) He describes Jason stubbburnly not willing to live under his shadow and carve his own identity and considers him the hardest working of the two.

    b) For all of Jason`s brief bouts with jealously, it`s Dick who asks Artemis if they`re together. Only when she gets passive defensive he chims in about her being out of his league. Later on she jokes the same way to Jason when he snarks about Dick being her boyfriend.

    c) Despite the infatuation, all Artemis talks and asks about is Jason. She doesn`t ask anything about Dick. Dick`s opener to her is a story of Jason from back then.

    d) The Annual ends with Dick exclaining that Jason does such good work as a good guy that it`s easy to forget he`s supposed to be a bad guy. This is nothing but another bat vouching what he does, like Bruce.

    The Annual wasn`t perfect. It`s Loedbell`s lesser work so far in Rebirth but you seriously didn`t read any value in what he wrote Dick saying?

  2. #7007
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    Oh yeah, I forgot it.

    He considers Jason a far better big brother to Bizarro than he ever was to him. This is telling, because it shows Jason managed to live past a certain level of experience and shape it differently for someone else.

  3. #7008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    You cling so hard on what you perceive to be negative treatment for the character that you can`t see the positive in Dick`s words.

    a) He describes Jason stubbburnly not willing to live under his shadow and carve his own identity and considers him the hardest working of the two.
    He I can't find anything were Dick really clearly said that Jason worked harder than him. Or did something better than him.

    He say some positive things about him, but imo nothing really strong. And the thing with breaking the rules can again be interpreted in a negative way.

  4. #7009
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    You cling so hard on what you perceive to be negative treatment for the character that you can`t see the positive in Dick`s words.

    a) He describes Jason stubbburnly not willing to live under his shadow and carve his own identity and considers him the hardest working of the two.
    Empty words when he can say that to Jason directly. He never had any issue praising Damian or Tim, why is different with Jason?

    b) For all of Jason`s brief bouts with jealously, it`s Dick who asks Artemis if they`re together. Only when she gets passive defensive he chims in about her being out of his league. Later on she jokes the same way to Jason when he snarks about Dick being her boyfriend.
    And yet he pushed the situation despite the obvious discomfort from Jason. For someone who just recently made up with his "little brother" Dick sure was acting like an ass.

    c) Despite the infatuation, all Artemis talks and asks about is Jason. She doesn`t ask anything about Dick. Dick`s opener to her is a story of Jason from back then.
    Jason had to work his ass off to get Artemis to trust on him. Dick literally just showed up to get the same.

    d) The Annual ends with Dick exclaining that Jason does such good work as a good guy that it`s easy to forget he`s supposed to be a bad guy. This is nothing but another bat vouching what he does, like Bruce.
    For all the good it makes.

    The Annual wasn`t perfect. It`s Loedbell`s lesser work so far in Rebirth but you seriously didn`t read any value in what he wrote Dick saying?
    Considering how he bend over himself to paint how freaking awesome Dick is, no, is not enough.

  5. #7010
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    From what little I've seen of Willis todd he reminds of Frank Gallagher from shameless.

  6. #7011
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    Its empty words because the work isn't actually there. Jason wasn't around for very long. As Robin he has the least amount of work to his name, and apart from being the one who died he was probably the least distinctive Robin there was. And now Dick is his secret hero, via Tim Drake's ripped off origin. Uhg...
    Last edited by Godlike13; 09-02-2017 at 12:17 AM.

  7. #7012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Its empty words because the work isn't actually there. Jason wasn't around for very long. As Robin he has the least amount of work to his name, and apart from being the one who died he was probably the least distinctive Robin there was.
    And that why they really should revisit his time as Robin, and ideally give him something similar to Robin Year One (I have actually read somewhere that it's creators planned to do a Jason Todd Year One) or Tims early miniseries. And use stuff like this annual (or books like the Eternals and Robin War) to highlight more what made him distinctive in a positiv way.

  8. #7013
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    Empty words when he can say that to Jason directly. He never had any issue praising Damian or Tim, why is different with Jason?
    His dinamic with Jason carries a different set of emotions. Pretty clear neither these two like to open up.

    Jason doesn`t open up or talks directly to Dick about his first impression either. He talks to himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    And yet he pushed the situation despite the obvious discomfort from Jason. For someone who just recently made up with his "little brother" Dick sure was acting like an ass.
    Jason isn`t a kid that needs to be pout in the back, guy. That sequence was clearly done to fuel the JasonxArtemis shippers. But here, that admittion in the end was told to Jason`s face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    Jason had to work his ass off to get Artemis to trust on him. Dick literally just showed up to get the same
    By talking about Jason and Jason only. He`s the guy/wingman who only tells stories about the guy that`s been close to the girl to get instant rapport. How utterling flattering.

    Artemis looked to trust him by proxis of Jason having a history to him and being brothers. But here`s another reason your expectations are sometimes off. Is Dick charismatic with it? Yes, but you can`t chalk that up to bad writting. Dick has always been more relaxed and social with people than Jason ever has. That`s consistantly part of their DNA as characters.

    I mean, we all here realize by reading RATHO that Jason and Artemis first met on opposite sides of the battleground when he was "working" for Black Mask. Meanwhile, Dick comes from a friendly call and is instantly placed on the comfort zone. How on Earth to these two first impressions compare at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark_Tzitzimine View Post
    For all the good it makes.
    Is it you admitting there`s some potential good?

    It makes Dick the other bat after Bruce to vouch for the way he does things. His way works and works well and you can`t argue with results.

    To me, that level of trust back is satisfatory.

  9. #7014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Its empty words because the work isn't actually there. Jason wasn't around for very long. As Robin he has the least amount of work to his name, and apart from being the one who died he was probably the least distinctive Robin there was. And now Dick is his secret hero, via Tim Drake's ripped off origin. Uhg...
    There, there guy.

    Ya`ll can`t all be right all the time.

  10. #7015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    He I can't find anything were Dick really clearly said that Jason worked harder than him. Or did something better than him.

    He say some positive things about him, but imo nothing really strong. And the thing with breaking the rules can again be interpreted in a negative way.
    You can`t because you don`t really want to.

    Dick is effectively prasing Jason`s sense of independence despite living under rules and his legacy, his hard working nature in managing two lives ("studying all day and breaking rules by night"), his jugdment in paving his way (which he openly praises Jason at the end) and how he didn`t have any fault in how things started.

    Dick is a college droput and just praised the kid despite going out without Bruce`s say due to...negative things? Nope.

  11. #7016
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    But "studying all day and breaking rules by night" s not hardest working Robin ever.

    If you compare it to the praise the other Robins usually get, and to Jason calling Dick his hero, it is quite a weak praise in comparison.

  12. #7017
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    I gotta ask is there any evidence that Dick dropped out? I don't thinks he's even went to college here.

  13. #7018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alycat View Post
    I gotta ask is there any evidence that Dick dropped out? I don't thinks he's even went to college here.
    Since the reboot 52 his time in collage was afaik not mentioned sofar. But it is in general not really fleshed out what he did before the start of the new continuity.

    We don't now, why and how he quit or was fired as Robin. It is not really clear where worked as Nightwing (appearently not in Blüdhaven) and he apearently was together with Kory at some point, but at least sofar it doesn't look as if Kory was ever a Titans member.

  14. #7019
    Astonishing Member Dark_Tzitzimine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aioros22 View Post
    His dinamic with Jason carries a different set of emotions. Pretty clear neither these two like to open up.

    Jason doesn`t open up or talks directly to Dick about his first impression either. He talks to himself.
    But Dick, being so awesome as he's supposed to be should be the one trying to reach out Jason, just like he has done with every other freaking character he's friends with

    Jason isn`t a kid that needs to be pout in the back, guy. That sequence was clearly done to fuel the JasonxArtemis shippers. But here, that admittion in the end was told to Jason`s face.
    That doesn't excuse Dick acting like an ass. Bros before hoes, simply as that.


    By talking about Jason and Jason only. He`s the guy/wingman who only tells stories about the guy that`s been close to the girl to get instant rapport. How utterling flattering.

    Artemis looked to trust him by proxis of Jason having a history to him and being brothers. But here`s another reason your expectations are sometimes off. Is Dick charismatic with it? Yes, but you can`t chalk that up to bad writting. Dick has always been more relaxed and social with people than Jason ever has. That`s consistantly part of their DNA as characters.

    I mean, we all here realize by reading RATHO that Jason and Artemis first met on opposite sides of the battleground when he was "working" for Black Mask. Meanwhile, Dick comes from a friendly call and is instantly placed on the comfort zone. How on Earth to these two first impressions compare at all?
    Because you're assuming this happens after all of Artemis' development has happened when we know from the editorial note, it hasn't. Once they went to Qurac they get there until they solved the issue with Arkila and immediately after they got busy with the whole "Bizarro is dying" thing. Meaning the annual can only happen after Issue 7 but before Issue 9. When Artemis was still in bitch mode. And thus, the whole thing makes Artemis act OOC just because the great Dick Grayson shows up.

    Is it you admitting there`s some potential good?
    There is potential on the dynamics but that can't be found on the annual.

    It makes Dick the other bat after Bruce to vouch for the way he does things. His way works and works well and you can`t argue with results.

    To me, that level of trust back is satisfatory.
    And yet we know he can't be arsed to talk to Kate and tell her to knock it off. As I said, an empty token of appreciation that isn't backed up by actions.

  15. #7020
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    But "studying all day and breaking rules by night" s not hardest working Robin ever.

    If you compare it to the praise the other Robins usually get, and to Jason calling Dick his hero, it is quite a weak praise in comparison.
    Then you should change your narrative to "that`s not the praise I want" to "there`s no praise there".

    And why wouldn`t it be the hardest thing? If I recall, Pre Flashpoint, not only did Dick dropped his studies, for the longest time, Tim was having issues reconciliating the two, despite being considered the "smartest". Meanwhile this kid came from the streets, hardly ever lived a happy family life, had to live under a legacy that was not his and yet Dick is praising exactly that - that Jason was never content in living under someone else`s stories, he wanted to be his own thing and he tried hard to do it.

    Which in the end is what he did. Dick and Jason are the "graduates", they`re allies to Batman but able to carvve their own stories.

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