Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Aioros22]

But Dick, being so awesome as he's supposed to be should be the one trying to reach out Jason, just like he has done with every other freaking character he's friends with.

Has he? Since the reboot he hardly interacted with Tim or Roy, for example. That`s like one of the chief issues with his fanbase.

That doesn't excuse Dick acting like an ass. Bros before hoes, simply as that.

Which he admits in the end. What more with Jason helping Bizarro afterwards.

Because you're assuming this happens after all of Artemis' development has happened when we know from the editorial note, it hasn't. Once they went to Qurac they get there until they solved the issue with Arkila and immediately after they got busy with the whole "Bizarro is dying" thing. Meaning the annual can only happen after Issue 7 but before Issue 9. When Artemis was still in bitch mode. And thus, the whole thing makes Artemis act OOC just because the great Dick Grayson shows up.

The only editorial note I`m aware of is that it happens before issue #12 so feel free to show something more especific.

Unless it happens during the intial stages of RATHO, which I don`t belive it does for the most obvious reasons, Dick Grayson is well received because she and Jason already have some rapport here and there`s little reason to mistrust someone whom Jason welcomes in. This is evidenced further by Artemis only talking about Jay.

There is potential on the dynamics but that can't be found on the annual.

True, they have to carry somewhere else, I dislike it being too short.

And yet we know he can't be arsed to talk to Kate and tell her to knock it off. As I said, an empty token of appreciation that isn't backed up by actions.

We still don`t know how that will play out so I`m not going to debate something I don`t know how will happen.

Given it`s the same writer, he`s got everything to use it.

[Aioros22]

I gotta ask is there any evidence that Dick dropped out? I don't thinks he's even went to college here.

At this point we still don`t know how exactly Nigthwing came to be and what inspired the change.

But classically speaking, Dick Grayson has been a dropout since the 70`s.

[Alycat]

At this point we still don`t know how exactly Nigthwing came to be and what inspired the change.

But classically speaking, Dick Grayson has been a dropout since the 70`s.

Yeah I remember him dropping out previously, but I meant with the shirt timeline here I don't think we've gotten any indication of him ever going.

Any way about Artemis I think this is one of the few times we've seen her outside of a serious situation. That could account for her attitude here if you wanted to think that way.

[RedBird]

you're assuming this happens after all of Artemis' development

Thats because it does.

rhato annual note.JPG

This annual seems to imply that Bizarro may have had some time in between issue 11 when the Akila arc was over and he had fainted, to issue 12 when he needs bed rest and can hardly stand. The fact that there had been a time lapse between the issues makes sense considering also those flashbacks of 'happy moments' between the outlaws we see in issue 13. Also it actually helps make more sense of why they went to Gotham for treatment in issue 12 in the first place, apparently they didnt, they were already in Gotham.

[Aioros22]

I don`t think is that complicated, you can tell she already has a level of intimacy with Jason from this Annual alone. Jason brings someone in and tells them the other guy is pratically family, the Outlaws are family too, the other guy shows he knows Jason from long ago and shares stories when he was a pup pup..

Why would they give him the cold shower? Are readers just upset Dick Grayson smooth stalks every redhead he sees? I`m not. It it because it makes Artemis less endearing or "weak"? Just look who Artemis talked about the whole issue, was it Dick Grayson? His past? Hs life? Nada.

So all I get from this is that Grayson has a patalogical infatuation with red-heads. Shock me.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Has he? Since the reboot he hardly interacted with Tim or Roy, for example. That`s like one of the chief issues with his fanbase.

Damian, Duke, Kori, Wally, Garth and Babs say hi.

Which he admits in the end. What more with Jason helping Bizarro afterwards.

Good to see you admit Dick's being an ass.

We still don`t know how that will play out so I`m not going to debate something I don`t know how will happen.

Given it`s the same writer, he`s got everything to use it.

Lobdell isn't the one who decides who shows up on the book. That is on editorial.

Thats because it does.

rhato annual note.JPG

This annual seems to imply that Bizarro may have had some time in between issue 11 when the Akila arc was over and he had fainted, to issue 12 when he needs bed rest and can hardly stand. The fact that there had been a time lapse between the issues makes sense considering also those flashbacks of 'happy moments' between the outlaws we see in issue 13. Also it actually helps make more sense of why they went to Gotham for treatment in issue 12 in the first place, apparently they didnt, they were already in Gotham.

The only editorial note I`m aware of is that it happens before issue #12 so feel free to show something more especific.

Unless it happens during the intial stages of RATHO, which I don`t belive it does for the most obvious reasons, Dick Grayson is well received because she and Jason already have some rapport here and there`s little reason to mistrust someone whom Jason welcomes in. This is evidenced further by Artemis only talking about Jay.

The note doesn't denies the possibility of being earlier than issue 12 either. The way issues 12 and 13 are written leaves no breathing room to fit the annual into. Bizarro was in critical state at the end of issue 12 and this carried over to issue 13's beginning while Bizarro is for all accounts perfectly healthy on the annual. Plus, if you admit the annual happening between issues 12 and 13, then the emotional impact of issue 13 diminishes significantly. Besides, the thing with KGBeast isn't mentioned by Jason when he's recounting the events that lead Bizarro to his then-death.

Is also important to note that the annual heavily implies they spend at least a couple of days performing on the circus, you seriously believe that Jason would be so happy and carefree when Bizarro just freaking collapsed? Jason, the same guy who saw his mother died on an overdose?

On the other hand, the annual fits perfectly between Jason sparing Bizarro and his attack on the bad guy bar of issue 8

[RedBird]

The way issues 12 and 13 are written leaves no breathing room to fit the annual into. Bizarro was in critical state at the end of issue 12 and this carried over to issue 13's beginning while Bizarro is for all accounts perfectly healthy on the annual.

Plus, if you admit the annual happening between issues 12 and 13, then the emotional impact of issue 13 diminishes significantly.

I didnt admit the annual happened between issue 12 and 13, I clearly said between issue 11 and 12. I literally explained the situations as well, after he faints in issue 11 but before he is given bed rest in issue 12. Issue 12 and 13 CLEARLY had nothing in between since Luthor has Bizarro in operation the whole time.

Also yeah, Bizarro did collapse, but theres clearly a gap between issue 11 and 12 where people can easily assume that his collapse was simply a warning of things to come. That Jason and Artemis knew the eventuality of what was to occur and in response spent pleasant memories with him; EG like the flashbacks of Jason and Biz playing video game in issue 13 and now the events of the circus in the annual.

[Aioros22]

Damian, Duke, Kori, Wally, Garth and Babs say hi

Interesting you mention Kori. When did he reached out for her, when he was visiting ex girlfriends and get jealous of their seemingly new relationships or leases in life?

Good to see you admit Dick's being an ass

To the surprise of no one. I said it on the go otherwise I wouldn`t emphatize him admitting it.

Lobdell isn't the one who decides who shows up on the book. That is on editorial

They aren`t plotting and writting the book, he is.

The note doesn't denies the possibility of being earlier than issue 12 either. The way issues 12 and 13 are written leaves no breathing room to fit the annual into. Bizarro was in critical state at the end of issue 12 and this carried over to issue 13's beginning while Bizarro is for all accounts perfectly healthy on the annual. Plus, if you admit the annual happening between issues 12 and 13, then the emotional impact of issue 13 diminishes significantly. Besides, the thing with KGBeast isn't mentioned by Jason when he's recounting the events that lead Bizarro to his then-death.
Is also important to note that the annual heavily implies they spend at least a couple of days performing on the circus, you seriously believe that Jason would be so happy and carefree when Bizarro just freaking collapsed? Jason, the same guy who saw his mother died on an overdose?

I said before #12, as in the note, not after or during.

On the other hand, the annual fits perfectly between Jason sparing Bizarro and his attack on the bad guy bar of issue 8

Maybe. All it needs is to be in a place where Artemis and Jason are already drawing closer.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I didnt admit the annual happened between issue 12 and 13, I clearly said between issue 11 and 12. I literally explained the situations as well, after he faints in issue 11 but before he is given bed rest in issue 12. Issue 12 and 13 CLEARLY had nothing in between since Luthor has Bizarro in operation the whole time.

Also yeah, Bizarro did collapse, but theres clearly a gap between issue 11 and 12 where people can easily assume that his collapse was simply a warning of things to come. That Jason and Artemis knew the eventuality of what was to occur and in response spent pleasant memories with him; EG like the flashbacks of Jason and Biz playing video game in issue 13 and now the events of the circus in the annual.

Again, if they had days to fool around on the circus their freakout on issue 12 about Bizarro's condition loses impact and makes it look like is forced to create emotional response.

Interesting you mention Kori. When did he reached out for her, when he was visiting ex girlfriends and get jealous of their seemingly new relationships or leases in life?

Starfire issue 7. And he actually apologized to her and asked her (not her crush/boyfriend) how things were going.

To the surprise of no one. I said it on the go otherwise I wouldn`t emphatize him admitting it.

A hollow admission. They aren't kids anymore, but two grown ass adults and Dick is the one who should set the example. Editorial wants to tell us how amazing he is? He better start acting the part.

They aren`t plotting and writting the book, he is.

And his plots change per Editorial demands, not his. They are the ones who decide who can show and when or the ones who demand Lobdell to include certain characters on his plots.

Maybe. All it needs is to be in a place where Artemis and Jason are already drawing closer.

A closeness triggered by the whole Akila business, not earlier.

[RedBird]

Again, if they had days to fool around on the circus their freakout on issue 12 about Bizarro's condition loses impact and makes it look like is forced to create emotional response.

Its not forced and their 'freak out' doesnt lose impact. It can't. The impact is that Bizarros condition has NOW gotten really bad. In issue 12 he has deteriorated to a point where it is best for him to remain in bed. By issue 12 they know that he is no longer capable of doing anything without it severely affecting his health. That is the impact, that fact has them extremely worried for him when he does start fighting Grundy.

As I said, if it can be assumed that Biz fainting in issue 11 was only a sign of things to come (as Jason himself acknowledges since he knew the big guy wouldn't last long anyway), then all of the happy memories/flashbacks of issue 13, and the annual, plus Artemis's development can easily make more sense and fit just fine between the two issues of 11 and 12. One issue ends in Qurac and the other starts off in Gotham, theres no telling how much time actually passed between the issues.

If it happens before the Artemis arc as you state then Artemis's behavior makes no sense and it also makes no sense as to why she would be okay and hunky dorey to put a hold on her life long mission to retrieve the bow of Ra to play a circus act.

[Aahz]

Then you should change your narrative to "that`s not the praise I want" to "there`s no praise there".

But it is also not the praise you claimed would be there.
Dick said that Jason worked hard, but not that was the hardest working Robin or that he worked harder than Dick, that's just your interpretation.

My problem is just that Jason is not nearly getting that as much praise as the rest of the Batkids. Dick basically got a whole annual about how awesome he is (Grayson Annual #3). Tims intelligence gets also mentioned constantly, as is Cass fighting ability, praise of Jason is quite rare, usually quite weak and ambiguous, and he gets on top of this imo way more often shown in a negative way. I really don't know how often other characters called him an idiot or implied that he was one.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Its not forced and their 'freak out' doesnt lose impact. It can't. The impact is that Bizarros condition has NOW gotten really bad. In issue 12 he has deteriorated to a point where it is best for him to remain in bed. By issue 12 they know that he is no longer capable of doing anything without it severely affecting his health. That is the impact, that fact has them extremely worried for him when he does start fighting Grundy.

As I said, if it can be assumed that Biz fainting in issue 11 was only a sign of things to come (as Jason himself acknowledges since he knew the big guy wouldn't last long anyway), then all of the happy memories/flashbacks of issue 13, and the annual, plus Artemis's development can easily make more sense and fit just fine between the two issues of 11 and 12. One issue ends in Qurac and the other starts off in Gotham, theres no telling how much time actually passed between the issues.

If it happens before the Artemis arc as you state then Artemis's behavior makes no sense and it also makes no sense as to why she would be okay and hunky dorey to put a hold on her life long mission to retrieve the bow of Ra to play a circus act.

Exactly my point, both Artemis and Jason are written awfully OOC on the annual.

[Alycat]

I mean the time gap makes sense in order for issue 13 to make sense. The group had to have spent some downtime in Gotham for that flashback of Jason and Bizzaro to occur. There is no other time for it to happen, so the annual fits in right there.

[RedBird]

Exactly my point, both Artemis and Jason are written awfully OOC on the annual.

That is assuming that you are correct in your assumption?
The situation I am suggesting makes more sense for the time span and interactions, whilst you are suggesting a situation which would make the writing inconsistent and chalk it up to being ooc.

If thats what you would prefer to believe, by all means go ahead.

I will stick this theory, since A) its consistent, B) it makes more sense plot wise, and C) Clear evidence of the panel which states this all happens before the events of issue 12.
I personally dont think the writing was trying to be vague when they said 'before the events of issue 12' to mean anywhere from issue 1 till now. IF it had been before the Artemis arc it would have said "before the events of issue 8", no? But it didnt. So clearly thats not when it happened.

I think the editors were safely assuming we could figure it being after the previous event (Akila) but not before the event of issue 12 (life of Biz) as they state to us. Again, which places the annual right in that sweet spot between issue 11 and 12.

[RedBird]

I mean the time gap makes sense in order for issue 13 to make sense. The group had to have spent some downtime in Gotham for that flashback of Jason and Bizzaro to occur. There is no other time for it to happen, so the annual fits in right there.

Right? Plus I can't imagine Artemis being patient enough before issue 8 when she was constantly on edge and emotional to deal with Jason and Biz wasting time playing video games.

"One more round Arty, I swear, then we will go on your life changing mission!" :P