Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

And that would be crap writing if they made Jason a person who doesn't suffer from being beat down to where he can't carry on for a time. Showing him needing help to pick himself back up is good writing. It doesn't make him look like a Mary Sue.

Did you read the Future's End issue? Jason was anything but a Mary Sue, and his reactions to all the stuff that was happening around was perfectly in character, unlike the nonsense that Tynion wrote on Detective. Now that was crap writing.

[CPSparkles]

This



To this

[Rise]

I'm curious to know who are your favorite writters for Jason and who, in your opinion who gets his voice better?

And when it comes to the other Robin, what kind of dynamic you would like to see?

My kind of question!

Let's first say that I liked his Robin days writers (yes, including pre-crisis writers and Starling). Max Collins especially has wrote one of my favorite comic origin (and my absolute favourite Robin origin in general) and Barr's run was simply extremely fun.

Pre-flashpoint Red Hood:
1-Winnick: his voice for Jason is still till this day unmatched. His Jason was confident, witty, independent and someone that you would definitely be afraid of.
2-Countdown writers: despite how awful the weekly series was, they somehow managed to hit it with the challengers. Enjoyed their Jason and some of the some of the stories they wrote with him. I hardly tho consider them the best Jason writers, but they did better with him than most during that period.

New 52
1-Lobdell: no one can deny the great job he did with Jason and that he raised the bar with him. He has shown us a different side of him and has given him a depth that rarely seen in superhero comics. The one thing that I don't like about his take is how much he play with his insecurities which can come off as annoying sometimes.
2-Tomsai: really enjoyed his Arkham Kinght series. He is the type of writer who can be really overdramatic with his writing which I don't like, but his voice of Jason was actually good.
3-was Pak the one who wrote B/S annual? If he was, then he deserves this spot.
4-everyone else (King, Morrison, Bermejo, Seeley, Tynion and Snyder): none of them I call bad. Some of their takes on Jason I have really enjoyed and I think they have the potential to deliver something good when they bother to put some efforts.

[MorganL]

When did Bermejo write Jason.

[Aahz]

When did Bermejo write Jason.

In the "We are Robin" Issue of "Robin War", it was iirc the issue with the prison break.

[TheCape]

3-was Pak the one who wrote B/S annual? If he was, then he deserves this spot.

Yes, Pak did it.

[G-Potion]

My kind of question!

Let's first say that I liked his Robin days writers (yes, including pre-crisis writers and Starling). Max Collins especially has wrote one of my favorite comic origin (and my absolute favourite Robin origin in general) and Barr's run was simply extremely fun.

Pre-flashpoint Red Hood:
1-Winnick: his voice for Jason is still till this day unmatched. His Jason was confident, witty, independent and someone that you would definitely be afraid of.
2-Countdown writers: despite how awful the weekly series was, they somehow managed to hit it with the challengers. Enjoyed their Jason and some of the some of the stories they wrote with him. I hardly tho consider them the best Jason writers, but they did better with him than most during that period.

New 52
1-Lobdell: no one can deny the great job he did with Jason and that he raised the bar with him. He has shown us a different side of him and has given him a depth that rarely seen in superhero comics. The one thing that I don't like about his take is how much he play with his insecurities which can come off as annoying sometimes.
2-Tomsai: really enjoyed his Arkham Kinght series. He is the type of writer who can be really overdramatic with his writing which I don't like, but his voice of Jason was actually good.
3-was Pak the one who wrote B/S annual? If he was, then he deserves this spot.
4-everyone else (King, Morrison, Bermejo, Seeley, Tynion and Snyder): none of them I call bad. Some of their takes on Jason I have really enjoyed and I think they have the potential to deliver something good when they bother to put some efforts.

Oh yes Tomasi. I like his Arkham Knight well enough. His Jason voice in B&R is not bad at all, but the situations he put Jason through were hard to swallow.

By the way, can anyone do a list for the writers of Robin Jason as well?

[TheCape]

This are quotes from interview to Winnick make by Comic Vine few months before the reboot when he also talk about Jason's at all his brothers Pre-Flashpoint, i wanted to know your opinion about it and maybe how you would from point A to B if you want to change their relationships using their previous stories as base, to make something that mirrors the current status quos.

SL: How do you perceive Jason Todd’s relationships with each of the Batkids, from his perspective?

JW: Jason. Jason and his relationships. Starting at the bottom, the most recent, I think Jason kind of likes him (Damian).

TG: After he tried shooting him…

JW: Whatever. Jason is psychotic and a scoundrel and changes as the wind does. He’s a bit nuts, but I think what he likes about Damian is that he fights back, he’s an egotistical aristocrat, a 10-year-old man-child and I can’t imagine Jason doesn’t respect the talking back aspect of him, that he’s a little tough guy.

He hates Tim Drake more than any of them because Tim came after him. I never got to tell the Tim Drake-Jason Todd story and I probably won’t in this fashion. Or we’ll see. We’ll see. In my view, he hates Tim without even knowing him, without knowing anything about him or ever fighting him or being alongside him, he hates just the idea of him. He’s the one who came after him.

Dick, he also hates, but for entirely different reasons. That’s sort of like he’s (Dick) the good son. I think Jason feels superiority to Dick Grayson. It’s behind that Dick’s the goody-two-shoes. That’s an understatement of how he feels. He also understands that Dick Grayson’s never going to be Batman. That’s where the condescension comes in. You’re never going to be Batman, you don’t have that thing, that flaw in your character that makes Batman Batman. He’s like, I know I have that. He thinks he can do better than Batman. I think he looks down at Dick.

“Jason hates Dick Grayson. He’s the good son; he’s the one that worked out; he’s the one that “Dad” loves best. For me, there’s a philosophy behind Jason and Dick that I haven’t had a chance to play out fully. I don’t think it’s going to play out in this story, because it’s probably not the place for it. But I don’t mind putting the philosophy out there:

One thing that haunts Jason is that he thinks if Dick Grayson who was the one that was about to die, Batman would have saved him.

And worse, if Dick Grayson was murdered, Jason knows that Batman would have killed Joker. He knows that in his heart.

The dark, dark thing for Jason is that he doesn’t feel Bruce’s refusal to take revenge on the Joker is just about Batman’s morals and code that he won’t break. He thinks it’s about him. He thinks that if Dick Grayson was the one who was murdered, Batman would have definitely killed Joker.”

[dietrich]

Lobdell is the definitive Jason writer
Winnick his Jason had charm

Pak I enjoyed that annual
Morrison because I like a Jason who isn't working with the family though he's costume was so ugly that took away some of my enjoyment.
Haven't read countdown and was it Bermejo that wrote the Jason making the kids steals because I didn't like that.

[Aahz]

Haven't read countdown and was it Bermejo that wrote the Jason making the kids steals because I didn't like that.

Thats was iirc Tom King.

[dietrich]

Thats was iirc Tom King.

Well that figures.

[G-Potion]

This are quotes from interview to Winnick make by Comic Vine few months before the reboot when he also talk about Jason's at all his brothers Pre-Flashpoint, i wanted to know your opinion about it and maybe how you would from point A to B if you want to change their relationships using their previous stories as base, to make something that mirrors the current status quos.

As much as I praise Winnick's Jason, had he taken on the character at reboot, I have a feeling we would be a long long way from redemption and reconciliationwith the family, if ever. And if what he said here are the things he would do in a story, there's a chance of making Jason too unsympathetic, if not by Winnick himself, then by other writers who only need to read his Jason just a shade differently.

I think Lobdell had the right idea when he, 1. gave Jason All-Caste training and 2. took him out of Gotham. All-Caste for its teaching and recognition of goodness in Jason. I love how in spite of it, Jason was still too obsessed at the time for the lessons to stick, but nonetheless bits and pieces keep coming back to him from time to time, and when he faced the Untitled, it was at that point that he was ready to let go of that negative feeling. I love how All-Caste is basically a life time lesson for him. Even as far as RH/A, Ducra's teaching was still mentioned.

At the same time, taking Jason out of Gotham gave him space and time to live his own life, making friends instead of enemies. Kory and Roy not only care for Jason but gave him a different perspective on family, plus the distance from Gotham dulled his hatred to something more like indifference and later on to something more positive. Basically, this resolution is more realistic than both sides meeting and talking it out in one go, problems solved. This is more intricate than that, and sometimes you just need to step away from it for awhile.

The last point, since Rebirth, I've realized that in Lobdell's Jason, Robin Jay - who is such a big part of what Jason is - shines through. Winnick's Jason might have lost all that.

[Rise]

As much as I praise Winnick's Jason, had he taken on the character at reboot, I have a feeling we would be a long long way from redemption and reconciliationwith the family, if ever. And if what he said here are the things he would do in a story, there's a chance of making Jason too unsympathetic, if not by Winnick himself, then by other writers who only need to read his Jason just a shade differently.

I think Lobdell had the right idea when he, 1. gave Jason All-Caste training and 2. took him out of Gotham. All-Caste for its teaching and recognition of goodness in Jason. I love how in spite of it, Jason was still too obsessed at the time for the lessons to stick, but nonetheless bits and pieces keep coming back to him from time to time, and when he faced the Untitled, it was at that point that he was ready to let go of that negative feeling. I love how All-Caste is basically a life time lesson for him. Even as far as RH/A, Ducra's teaching was still mentioned.

At the same time, taking Jason out of Gotham gave him space and time to live his own life, making friends instead of enemies. Kory and Roy not only care for Jason but gave him a different perspective on family, plus the distance from Gotham dulled his hatred to something more like indifference and later on to something more positive. Basically, this resolution is more realistic than both sides meeting and talking it out in one go, problems solved. This is more intricate than that, and sometimes you just need to step away from it for awhile.

The last point, since Rebirth, I've realized that in Lobdell's Jason, Robin Jay - who is such a big part of what Jason is - shines through. Winnick's Jason might have lost all that.

The Outlaws weren't exactly LobdelI's idea. Taking Jason out of Gotham was his tho and All Caste were definitely a good addition.

And we can't really judge what Winnick would have done with Jason if he was a given a book starring him because the circumstances are going to be different especially with the reboot, but I'm still glad with what we got.

Also, I disagree with your last point. The biggest problem with Red Hood writers is how all of them have ignored Jason's time as Robin besides DITF. I actually wish that annual was a story of Robin Jason than wasting it on Dick.

[G-Potion]

Also, I disagree with your last point. The biggest problem with Red Hood writers is how all of them have ignored Jason's time as Robin besides DITF. I actually wish that annual was a story of Robin Jason than wasting it on Dick.

Still that kindness that Lobdell wrote into Jason has to be a core trait of his since Robin days.
If we're talking about directly writing Robin Jay though, I think Lobdell wrote him quite a bit, and not all of them DITF related. He wrote Robin Jay befriending Speedy which was his own spin, granted. But he also wrote Jason beating up Two-face, while almost slipping about how he thought of Bruce as his dad. He wrote Robin Jay's best friend was a gargoyle , which I take it to reference his lack of Titan friends in his days.

[RedBird]

How would you guys generally list all the writers for Jason? Or if thats too much in what boat would you place each of them in, (eg: bad, poor, incapable, great, the best, good etc)

I'm being pretty liberal with this list, and basically counting anyone who has written him for at least one issue and given him a voice and or agency, or speaks of him in a way which is meaningful to the narrative whether positive or negative, so one off lines or passing mentions don’t count but entire narratives that give focus to the character do.

If it is an apparition of Jason than not one that is purposefully meant to be just pain and a trick so this means I’m not counting things like, Batman/Demon or Gotham Knights 16 both in which Jason either is actually a demon hurting Bruce or is a ghostly apparition of Bruces own mind only out to cause him pain.

I'm counting any other productions Jason was in besides BTAS which is disqualified for obvious reasons, and the lego Batman version which is just a skin.

I'm also not counting the one issue of young justice (I cant recall which one) where a pre crisis version of Jason returns but acknowledges he was dead and sits in a room full of 'forgotten' characters, and also I'm not counting Jason in Bruce Wayne: Agents of SHIELD, which featured Jason as a Hydra cyborg, since they are depictions before his resurrection that were outside of his now established characterization, they are playing with a concept of Jason but not any canon characterization that actually existed as of yet so it wasn’t in any way reflective of him.



Bear in mind I'm not expecting a rating for every single one, just figured that a few of these might jog some memories.



Lobdell

Winnick

Greg Pak (Usually any superman crossovers, eg: Batman/Superman annual and Action Comics appearances)

Snyder

Lee Bermejo

Starlin

Collins

Wolfman

Valentine

Tomasi

King

Morrison

F. Miller

Geoff Johns

Tony. S. Daniel

Tynion

The countdown crew which was headed by Paul Dini with several writers such as, Palmiotti + McKeever + Bedard + Beechen + Gray.

The Search for Ray Palmer crew Which featured most of the same writers alongside, Burnett + Marz + Johnson + Tocchini

Bennett (Batwoman + Bombshells)

Jones (Nightwing brothers blood)

Bedard(Supergirl)

Beatty (Gotham Knights 43-45)

Fabian Nicieza (Robin 177-183)

Dixon (Nightwing Year one)

Ogle (flashpoint Jason)

Tandall + Von Eeden (Pre crisis Jason; eg Batman 401)

Ostrander + Wein (Legends 2, or the one where Jason get put into hospital but gets the hell back up)

Moench + Colan + Alcala (pre crisis Jason; eg Noctura and Adoption crisis)

Barr+Davis+Neary (post crisis Jason eg; The scarescrow storyline with Bruces biggest fear)

Gerry Conway (pre crisis Jason eg; blonde Jasons origin. Also this guy created him.)

Mike Baron (Batman annual 12)

Dennis O' Neil (LOTDK Issue 100)

Dwyer (Batman Black and White)

Lancaster + Sefton Hill + Ian Ball (BAK writers)

The injustice 2 writing crew

Young Justice writing crew

Baltazar+Aureliani (tiny titans)

Dustin Nguyen (lil Gotham)

Alan Moore (for the man who has everything)

Adam Beechen (Teen titans 47)

Vance (Dead Man: dead again 2)

Gabrych (Detective Comics 790)

Cohn + Mishkin (Blue Devil 19)

Jeph Loeb (Hush)

Kesel (Batman and Superman Worlds Finest 7)

James Bonny (Deathstroke 16)

Pfeifer (Rhato 29 - 31)

Williams (trinity 15)

Kelly + Lanzing (Gotham City Garage)

Steve Niles (Gotham County Line)

Mark Waid (Underworld Unleashed #2)

Joe Keatinge (DC Universe Presents #17)

Christopher Priest (Batman Annual 14)

Robert Greenberger (Batman Annual 13)

Joe Duffy (Batman 413)

Ron Marz (Convergence: Batman & Robin)


I have added notes to the writers whose work may be obscure or have only written one event for the character.

If there are any writers I have missed please let me know so I can add them.

(and thanks for all the help thus far)