Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Rise]

Ask Marz, he did it with Convergence.

And Winnick wrote Jason for more than just two issues: Outsiders #44-#46, Outsiders Annual#1, Green Arrow #69-#72, B&R #23-25, Lost Days, Batman Annual #25. Plenty of breathing room to develop his vision of Jason.

If you consider what Marz did a "development", then why you don't treat what Winick did with him in streets run red as a development too? Like I said, stop being unfair.

And come on now, you can't really not realize how you keep proving my point. All of you mentioned was just two to three issues expect RHLSD (which was set BEFORE UTRH) where Jason appeared as a GUEST CHARACTER in someone else book, how can winnick develop him when can't do a full arc with him and keep being changed by different writers?

[TheCape]

Yeah, i don't think that Marz develop him as much as he just... write him differently, it has been some time since i read that mini, but i remenber finding Jason change of heart very sudden.

[SpentShrimp]

Yeah, but how far apart were those issues in publication history? Somebody can write 30 issues of a single character, but if it's scattered throughout a long period of time, with other writers having a more consistent period of writing said character, or nobody writing that character at all, the potential for character growth is heavily hindered.

Plus, Winnick's writing with Jason in the Green Arrow issues were really good.

[magpieM]

I started reading RHATO and related comics not long ago. It's really great to see those discussions!

My first impression of Jason Todd was all from the movie UTRH that I watched a year ago. Before that I didn't care about DC or Marvel at all. I still remember the emotional turmoil the movie gave me. It felt like strong agony and anger filling in my chest that I didn't know how to release. Winnick really did a great job to present such an overwhelming character. And I also read that interview that Winnick talking about Jason's view of Bruce, Dick, Tim and Damian. Those "dark, dark" feelings Jason held towards other batfam at that time was so "lively" and "relatable" based on my personal experience in job and family. It feels like the Jason in UTRH is standing right in front of me again just reading Winnick's interview without any actual graphic panels.

Yes Lobdell did a great job to develop this character in long term. The current Dark Trinity is absolutely amazing! But, ... I don't know how to put this. Something is lacking. Whenever I re-watch UTRH or re-read Winnick's interview, I feel being swallowed again by this character, his emotions and morality. That's the power of Winnick's writing.

[RedBird]

That not pinning since Jason doesn't acknowledge Roy much either and all over him with Bizarro being his bestie now (actually, both Roy and Kory situation is pretty pathetic in Rebirth that I have stopped caring about them). Just don't pretend that Jason was so "lonely" and had no one before meeting his new teammates just to show how they "rocked" his "lonely" life.

The point of the discussion originally is how no red hood writer bother themselves in acknowledging his time as Robin because there are many stories they can refer or retold besides DITF which bring up another point, stop limiting Jason's relationships to whoever he currently team up with. Bring up his old relationships and acknowledge them like Gabby, Chris, Essence, Amall or even Isapel. What about his relationships pre-flashpoint? Like Natalia, Bolluck or that girl he used to have a crush on? Stop overplaying Jason's loneliness because he had people and you don't need to downplay them in favour of his new teammates nor make his life more tragic than it already is.

I also hope with upcoming Willis arc that Lobdell will clear the Todd's family situation. Is Catherine his mother or did he bring back Sheila back in the continuity? And please don't turn Willis into some evil dude just to show how better Bruce is because it's unneeded and it will be good for Jason to establish a history away from Batman.

Never said he was pinning.

I said I wouldnt want that as a direction.

Especially when the relationship doesnt have a mutual connection anymore.

Never said that Jasons relationships should be limited either, I literally said I would love Lobdell to tackle this friendship, but only if we see some development from Roy as well.

Wasn't overplaying his loneliness either, just saying that the main focus should remain on the current team, this book is still pretty young after all. Besides, the book has given time to characters outside of the team that have meaning to Jason, like Bruce and Dick and even Faye, and its been great, and it was all done without taking the focus off of the main cast.

Also I love that Lobdell acknowledges Jasons past as Robin.

I literally have no idea where you are pulling these assumptions and accusations from.

[Rise]

I wasn't talking about you (or throwing accusations), I was criticising what Lobdell was doing. I know my English isn't perfect, but I thought I was clear that I'm talking about THE WRITER.

[RedBird]

I wasn't talking about you (or throwing accusations), I was criticising what Lobdell was doing. I know my English isn't perfect, but I thought I was clear that I'm talking about THE WRITER.

Thanks, that clears it up.

No offense but since you quoted me, I had to assume it was a response TO me, good to know that wasnt your intention cause I was pretty damn confused.

[Rise]

I started reading RHATO and related comics not long ago. It's really great to see those discussions!

My first impression of Jason Todd was all from the movie UTRH that I watched a year ago. Before that I didn't care about DC or Marvel at all. I still remember the emotional turmoil the movie gave me. It felt like strong agony and anger filling in my chest that I didn't know how to release. Winnick really did a great job to present such an overwhelming character. And I also read that interview that Winnick talking about Jason's view of Bruce, Dick, Tim and Damian. Those "dark, dark" feelings Jason held towards other batfam at that time was so "lively" and "relatable" based on my personal experience in job and family. It feels like the Jason in UTRH is standing right in front of my again just reading Winnick's interview without any actual graphic panels.

Yes Lobdell did a great job to develop this character in long term. The current Dark Trinity is absolutely amazing! But, ... I don't know how to put this. Something is lacking. Whenever I re-watch UTRH or re-read Winnick's interview, I feel being swallowed again by this character, his emotions and morality. That's the power of Winnick's writing.

Winnick has a certain voice for Jason that still unmatched. I can't deny that I sometimes miss his Jason.

I treat Lobdell's Jason as a different version of him which I really like a lot, I just wish his Jason become more confident instead of always selling himself short.

Thanks, that clears it up.

No offense but since you quoted me, I had to assume it was a response TO me, good to that wasnt your intension cause I was pretty damn confused.

None taken and sorry if I did. I qouted you and G as a point for Jason being over Roy. Everything else is a criticism from me about some of the choices Lobdell did which I don't like.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

If you consider what Marz did a "development", then why you don't treat what Winick did with him in streets run red as a development too? Like I said, stop being unfair.

Streets Run Red didn't developed Jason's character at all. He was just an angsty badass that by plot contrivances was able to remain ahead of everyone's else and who still had an enormous chip on his shoulder. Marz's Jason on the other hand actually mellowed out and was able to put his differences aside and being willing to work with Batman with no other motives underneath.

And come on now, you can't really not realize how you keep proving my point. All of you mentioned was just two to three issues expect RHLSD (which was set BEFORE UTRH) where Jason appeared as a GUEST CHARACTER in someone else book, how can winnick develop him when can't do a full arc with him and keep being changed by different writers?

Treat every guest appearance as part of an ongoing story instead of standalone stories, make the character grow as consequence of those very same stories. The result might be a weaker character arc but is still a character arc nonetheless, and you don't need 20 issues to do that. When writers care for the characters doing something like this is simple enough. Alan Grant developed an entire character for Lonnie Machin on his appearances as antagonist on the Batman books back on the 90's just to name an example.

[magpieM]

I'm really curious about how the possible "Willis reveal" written by Lobdell would affect Jason's feelings and his relationship with Bruce. So far the core value in the Dark Trinity story is always about the "family". I just read the blog about the theory of "the 'Black Mask' in vol 1 was supposed to be Willis Todd" (you guys probably read it already so I realized that how dumb my previous interpretations were).

I don't know what role Lobdell will put Willis in. But I think he is still targeting the relationship between Jason and Bruce. It's convenient for Lobdell to shy away from Jason's morality. If Jason finally gets along well with his "dad", will he still resent the non-killing rule?

Part of the reason why the UTRH is so powerful is because it put Batman's morality in a questionable position, and in the end, for audience to choose a side. Anyone with some life experience would have a preference. How should justice be done? That's a universal question. Jason gained so many fans throughout the world because people understand his morality and feel for his tragedy intertwined with love & revenge with Bruce.

We all know Jason will never settle. He will fight for what he believes. But what is he believing now? When the Outlaws were in the battle in Quarc, I was curious: will Lobdell put Jason into the position to decide whether or not to finish off the dictator?? I remember reading an interview in which Lobdell mentioned he prefers writing adventures in lighter tone other than hard-core crime stories. Well it turned out that he let Akila do the job. How convenient.

Now Dark Trinity can stop crime from happening thanks to Bizarro's technology. Another good angle to shy away from the choice. Sure Lobdell made great efforts to develop this character from UTRH. Red Hood is less bitter and edgy, less resentful towards batfam. That's good. But does it mean that he is also willing to water down his morality and bow to the non-killing rule? Jason's own morality was the fundamental disagreement between himself and Bats that forever diverge his way from the others. There is no reconciliation of "father & son" relationship to fix that.

One thing I really don't like is to assume that Jason's willing to eliminate extreme criminals is because he has hard life and bad relationship with batfam; If he's happy and feels being loved he'd no longer insist his morality. If Lobdell is heading this direction then I probably no longer care about this character anymore.

[Alycat]

As much as I liked Winick I always cringe thinking about some of his decisions and subtle stuff he wanted . Like the child prostitution and implying Jason had some attraction towards Bruce. That can stay in the toilet with Devin Grayson's ideas.

[SpentShrimp]

Streets Run Red didn't developed Jason's character at all. He was just an angsty badass that by plot contrivances was able to remain ahead of everyone's else and who still had an enormous chip on his shoulder. Marz's Jason on the other hand actually mellowed out and was able to put his differences aside and being willing to work with Batman with no other motives underneath.



Treat every guest appearance as part of an ongoing story instead of standalone stories, make the character grow as consequence of those very same stories. The result might be a weaker character arc but is still a character arc nonetheless, and you don't need 20 issues to do that. When writers care for the characters doing something like this is simple enough. Alan Grant developed an entire character for Lonnie Machin on his appearances as antagonist on the Batman books back on the 90's just to name an example.

You are in some serious denial when it comes to anybody but the All Mighty Lobdell writing Jason.

[Rise]

As much as I liked Winick I always cringe thinking about some of his decisions and subtle stuff he wanted . Like the child prostitution and implying Jason had some attraction towards Bruce. That can stay in the toilet with Devin Grayson's ideas.

A what? Don't mix tumblr messed up headcanons with actual canon because Winnick never intended that.

And don't bring GA as proof because Jason never meant what some people for some reason wrongly thought.

[Alycat]

A what? Don't treat tumblr messed up headcanons with actual canon because Winnick never intended that.

And don't bring GA as proof because Jason never meant what some people for some reason wrongly thought.

I didn't need Tumblr for that, what other implication and from BotC what other secret could it be? The latter wasn't Winick but man the implication was there.

[Aahz]

Wondering if Willis will become more similar to this.

Lost Years.jpg