Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[G-Potion]

We all know Jason will never settle. He will fight for what he believes. But what is he believing now? When the Outlaws were in the battle in Quarc, I was curious: will Lobdell put Jason into the position to decide whether or not to finish off the dictator?? I remember reading an interview in which Lobdell mentioned he prefers writing adventures in lighter tone other than hard-core crime stories. Well it turned out that he let Akila do the job. How convenient.

Now Dark Trinity can stop crime from happening thanks to Bizarro's technology. Another good angle to shy away from the choice. Sure Lobdell made great efforts to develop this character from UTRH. Red Hood is less bitter and edgy, less resentful towards batfam. That's good. But does it mean that he is also willing to water down his morality and bow to the non-killing rule? Jason's own morality was the fundamental disagreement between himself and Bats that forever diverge his way from the others. There is no reconciliation of "father & son" relationship to fix that.

One thing I really don't like is to assume that Jason's willing to eliminate extreme criminals is because he has hard life and bad relationship with batfam; If he's happy and feels being loved he'd no longer insist his morality. If Lobdell is heading this direction then I probably no longer care about this character anymore.

I think his challenge of Batman's morality worked in UTH is because we were very well informed of the Joker's crimes. Quarac was always about finding the bow and not about punishing a dictator. We didn't have anything concrete going on regarding his crimes on humanity, for us to want the guy dead, at least not on an emotional level. Especially after he admitted that he wasn't using the bow, ie. it wasn't him that blow up a whole city. Even though he is a dictator, offing him right after his plea of innocence wouldn't make Jason look good either.

From interviews, I think the long game Lobdell is going for is to keep challenging Jason's view, as Jason himself did with Batman. I hope it means there will for a long time be a back and forth between whether he thinks his way is right or wrong. In the end I'll always want Jason to have a different set of principals from the Bats of course, but in the mean time, challenge his view in any way. Of course, I very much want this conflict about morality to show up again in RHATO, but when it does, it has to be the focus and not a side dish to Artemis's story.

As of now, I don't think that he is succumbed to Batman's no kill policy, not on a fundamental level. It's just that he can be flexible about it. He wants to set an example for Bizarro, and Duela before that, knowing full well the damage they both could do. He circumvented the rule in the situation with Black Mask. At the end of RH/A, even though Roy saved him from taking another life, there was no doubt Jason was ready to pull the trigger on Duela. That was after he offed a few of Roy's former teammates.

Now there's an idea. What if Willis turns out to have committed a horrible crime?

[Aahz]

Oh yeah, Chris! I don't know why I keep forgetting his name.

And did we read the same issue? Because Jason wasn't his follower in anyway and didn't agree with what he did. They were just both kids in the same situation, but dealt with things differently which why they used to hang out. Also, n52 kid Jason was quite shady himself and different from Collins take because let's not forget that Lobdell had him bite the hand that helped him and stole the drugs intending to selling them off in the zero issue which is why I hated his n52 origin story.

Depends on which issue with Chris you mean, imo RHatO#25 was ok but Batman#0 was quite bad, especially when you compare the Tim and Dicks flashback with Jasons.

[TheCape]

back_to_the_cave_page_four_by_the_blackcat.jpg
I find this webcomic thanks to a post in the Tim Drake thread. Is pretty good.

[G-Potion]

Injustice's Last Chance Qualifier for ELeague official promotion pic. Our boy is on there.

[G-Potion]

I find this webcomic thanks to a post in the Tim Drake thread. Is pretty good.

Ha I like this Batman.

[Aioros22]

http://3eden.tumblr.com/

[EMarie]

And did we read the same issue? Because Jason wasn't his follower in anyway and didn't agree with what he did. They were just both kids in the same situation, but dealt with things differently which why they used to hang out. Also, n52 kid Jason was quite shady himself and different from Collins take because let's not forget that Lobdell had him bite the hand that helped him and stole the drugs intending to selling them off in the zero issue which is why I hated his n52 origin storyAnd did we read the same issue? Because Jason wasn't his follower in anyway and didn't agree with what he did. They were just both kids in the same situation, but dealt with things differently which why they used to hang out. Also, n52 kid Jason was quite shady himself and different from Collins take because let's not forget that Lobdell had him bite the hand that helped him and stole the drugs intending to selling them off in the zero issue which is why I hated his n52 origin story..

Jason didn't want to go rob a store, didn't realize it was a real loaded gun and panicked (saying his name) which lead to a woman dying. Jason clearly didn't want any part of it but still did it because of Chris. Collins has Jason calm when dealing with people bigger than him and guns. Tynion had Jason freak out even when he assumed the gun wasn't loaded and they were just taking money.

Didn't Chris also drag Jason away from his mom to get red hood masks off dead guys in the middle of a city wide panic? I still don't buy Jason leaving her in that state especially at that time. I recall Chris getting mad and punching Jason. Later on Jason punched him and claimed he'd never be Red Hood. Which happened before the attempted store robbery.

Jason made it clear under Collins that he only stole to survive. He didn't want to join Ma Gunn's gang. Chris thought that somehow they'd be able to join the Red Hood gang with masks. I didn't like the selling drug origin either.

[G-Potion]

http://3eden.tumblr.com/

Dang look at the colors burst.

I'll have my new art up here soon.... eventually...

[kiwiliko]

I'm really curious about how the possible "Willis reveal" written by Lobdell would affect Jason's feelings and his relationship with Bruce. So far the core value in the Dark Trinity story is always about the "family". I just read the blog about the theory of "the 'Black Mask' in vol 1 was supposed to be Willis Todd" (you guys probably read it already so I realized that how dumb my previous interpretations were).

I don't know what role Lobdell will put Willis in. But I think he is still targeting the relationship between Jason and Bruce. It's convenient for Lobdell to shy away from Jason's morality. If Jason finally gets along well with his "dad", will he still resent the non-killing rule?

Part of the reason why the UTRH is so powerful is because it put Batman's morality in a questionable position, and in the end, for audience to choose a side. Anyone with some life experience would have a preference. How should justice be done? That's a universal question. Jason gained so many fans throughout the world because people understand his morality and feel for his tragedy intertwined with love & revenge with Bruce.

We all know Jason will never settle. He will fight for what he believes. But what is he believing now? When the Outlaws were in the battle in Quarc, I was curious: will Lobdell put Jason into the position to decide whether or not to finish off the dictator?? I remember reading an interview in which Lobdell mentioned he prefers writing adventures in lighter tone other than hard-core crime stories. Well it turned out that he let Akila do the job. How convenient.

Now Dark Trinity can stop crime from happening thanks to Bizarro's technology. Another good angle to shy away from the choice. Sure Lobdell made great efforts to develop this character from UTRH. Red Hood is less bitter and edgy, less resentful towards batfam. That's good. But does it mean that he is also willing to water down his morality and bow to the non-killing rule? Jason's own morality was the fundamental disagreement between himself and Bats that forever diverge his way from the others. There is no reconciliation of "father & son" relationship to fix that.

One thing I really don't like is to assume that Jason's willing to eliminate extreme criminals is because he has hard life and bad relationship with batfam; If he's happy and feels being loved he'd no longer insist his morality. If Lobdell is heading this direction then I probably no longer care about this character anymore.

The one day all this juicy discussion happens and of course I miss it because exams.

I think Lobdell definitely isn't about to give Jason a change of heart, this kind of view is very much one of his core beliefs but for him to say all killing is wrong means he also on some level says he now believes for the hundreds of people Joker has probably murdered, Joker does not deserve any consequence outside of jail. Also to have him change his view for the sake of merging him back to batfamily just downright looks terrible if you consider it implies this family can only conditionally give him love as long as his beliefs match theirs and I'm not touching just how disturbingly alike that is to a good amount of real families living under strict religious/otherwise standards.

You have a point that the whole moral arguement isn't being touched on right now but I'd like to counter that in Atremis' arc, he dissociates during the torture scene and chooses to repeatedly kill the Joker. All of this happens after he chooses not to kill so he could set an example for Bizarro but here he knows it's all in his head he still tells us his choice is always going to be kill Joker. If his moral standpoint still needs to be discussed, I think it's also fair that Lobdell would save it for a later point when there's more setup for the story to go that direction and once the Outlaws are further along in their adventures.

I thought it felt shaky at first to have Jason think he needed to be an example for Bizarro when Bizarro already felt like such a kind soul but now that we know Bizarro is actively trying to hide those possibly intensely personal letters from Jason, I think he does need a guiding figure. He's no less kind hearted at all doing this because he wants to protect Jason but it's awesome to see some moral grey in the actions of this outlaw and it's a tricky but so far well done act to balance that action with with Bizarro's very well intentioned personality. Jason has been known to put 'acting on his own morality' on the backburner if it's for the sake of someone else and it really says a lot that his goal isn't about eliminating bad people, that helping someone else will always win over eliminating bad people for him.

Agree so hard with your last point too. To somehow justify his anger at Gotham's entire system of revolving jail doors as lashing out due to a hard life cheapens the entire viewpoint. I think UtRH hit home for a lot of people because places like Gotham happen in real life. We had a serial killer a few years back who murdered prostitutes because he thought they were "dirtied women". Police didn't do much and brushed off a lot because people reporting this were also prostitutes and then it really became a big deal just after finding out he fed the bodies to his pigs and those pigs were sold for human consumption. The revolving door also happens, last year we welcomed back a repeat offence pedophile who left jail after maybe 5 or 8 years. Never in real life should any comic book characters decisions be applied but there's also no denying Jason's situation and what he grew up with in Gotham is very much almost a story out of real life.

Anyways that was a long ass text wall that I'm sorry I made you read but question for you all. Where do you guys stand on the spectrum of this Bat/Jason morality? Just curious to hear because I know people who disagree with Jason but still like his character and vice versa for Bruce too.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

http://3eden.tumblr.com/

Beautiful job, my favorite part is that they used Medri's costume for Jason, in my opinion the best look for him. And really, it says a lot of how prevalent the OG Outlaws for the fans. Here's hoping the story with them meeting the current Outlaws is still coming.

I'm really curious about how the possible "Willis reveal" written by Lobdell would affect Jason's feelings and his relationship with Bruce. So far the core value in the Dark Trinity story is always about the "family". I just read the blog about the theory of "the 'Black Mask' in vol 1 was supposed to be Willis Todd" (you guys probably read it already so I realized that how dumb my previous interpretations were).

I don't know what role Lobdell will put Willis in. But I think he is still targeting the relationship between Jason and Bruce. It's convenient for Lobdell to shy away from Jason's morality. If Jason finally gets along well with his "dad", will he still resent the non-killing rule?

Part of the reason why the UTRH is so powerful is because it put Batman's morality in a questionable position, and in the end, for audience to choose a side. Anyone with some life experience would have a preference. How should justice be done? That's a universal question. Jason gained so many fans throughout the world because people understand his morality and feel for his tragedy intertwined with love & revenge with Bruce.

We all know Jason will never settle. He will fight for what he believes. But what is he believing now? When the Outlaws were in the battle in Quarc, I was curious: will Lobdell put Jason into the position to decide whether or not to finish off the dictator?? I remember reading an interview in which Lobdell mentioned he prefers writing adventures in lighter tone other than hard-core crime stories. Well it turned out that he let Akila do the job. How convenient.

Now Dark Trinity can stop crime from happening thanks to Bizarro's technology. Another good angle to shy away from the choice. Sure Lobdell made great efforts to develop this character from UTRH. Red Hood is less bitter and edgy, less resentful towards batfam. That's good. But does it mean that he is also willing to water down his morality and bow to the non-killing rule? Jason's own morality was the fundamental disagreement between himself and Bats that forever diverge his way from the others. There is no reconciliation of "father & son" relationship to fix that.

One thing I really don't like is to assume that Jason's willing to eliminate extreme criminals is because he has hard life and bad relationship with batfam; If he's happy and feels being loved he'd no longer insist his morality. If Lobdell is heading this direction then I probably no longer care about this character anymore.

Is not really that Jason has changed his view just because he has a place to belong, but the fact of the matter is that Jason has grown to believe that no one is truly irredeemable like it was the case with Joker's Daughter (story on which Jason outright decided to stop killing to set an example for Duela). And for those few they do, he would rather dish out some "ironic" punishment than killing them. Something like rehabilitating the Joker so he would be forced to live with the knowledge of all the terrible things he did. The only exception to that, is when people threatens Jason's friends. Then is when all the niceties are over and he goes straight for the kill.

Personally I don't think this is watering down the character but helping him to mature.

[magpieM]

I think his challenge of Batman's morality worked in UTH is because we were very well informed of the Joker's crimes. Quarac was always about finding the bow and not about punishing a dictator. We didn't have anything concrete going on regarding his crimes on humanity, for us to want the guy dead, at least not on an emotional level. Especially after he admitted that he wasn't using the bow, ie. it wasn't him that blow up a whole city. Even though he is a dictator, offing him right after his plea of innocence wouldn't make Jason look good either.

Yes this is true. The story did not explore enough about this guy. And it's not necessary either because Artemis, Akila and the bow were the focus. So yes it would be a huge distraction if the story suddenly focus on something else from the battle.

In the end I'll always want Jason to have a different set of principals from the Bats of course, but in the mean time, challenge his view in any way. Of course, I very much want this conflict about morality to show up again in RHATO, but when it does, it has to be the focus and not a side dish to Artemis's story.

Exactly. It would be better to leave it to a proper situation when the challenge is involved in the core story.

[magpieM]

I think Lobdell definitely isn't about to give Jason a change of heart, this kind of view is very much one of his core beliefs but for him to say all killing is wrong means he also on some level says he now believes for the hundreds of people Joker has probably murdered, Joker does not deserve any consequence outside of jail. Also to have him change his view for the sake of merging him back to batfamily just downright looks terrible if you consider it implies this family can only conditionally give him love as long as his beliefs match theirs and I'm not touching just how disturbingly alike that is to a good amount of real families living under strict religious/otherwise standards.

It's true though. In UTRH he did believe that the extreme cases like Joker need to be killed. The challenge to test Jason himself is: Does he still truly believe it and have the will to take it into action when it's necessary, knowing it could further deteriorate his relationship with Bats? Or is it just part of his antagonism toward the Batfam, or in other words, is his belief something "negotiable" and "conditional" when it comes to Batman's approval to work under his rules? I don't think (and don't like) the latter would be the final outcome, but there are raised doubts about it.

I think the interesting thing is: Lobdell put him in this situation knowing we may ask those questions. He actually used Black Mask's mouth to speak: "... you no longer have to worry about elevating yourself in Batman's eyes..." (#5) And about the Bat symbol: "...It's a leash you put on yourself --- A way to keep yourself tethered to him... But you're just an errant child looking for your father's love." (#6)

You have a point that the whole moral arguement isn't being touched on right now but I'd like to counter that in Atremis' arc, he dissociates during the torture scene and chooses to repeatedly kill the Joker. All of this happens after he chooses not to kill so he could set an example for Bizarro but here he knows it's all in his head he still tells us his choice is always going to be kill Joker. If his moral standpoint still needs to be discussed, I think it's also fair that Lobdell would save it for a later point when there's more setup for the story to go that direction and once the Outlaws are further along in their adventures.

Yes now I totally agree with you and G. It would be too rush to add such a moment into Artemis story.

I thought it felt shaky at first to have Jason think he needed to be an example for Bizarro when Bizarro already felt like such a kind soul but now that we know Bizarro is actively trying to hide those possibly intensely personal letters from Jason, I think he does need a guiding figure. He's no less kind hearted at all doing this because he wants to protect Jason but it's awesome to see some moral grey in the actions of this outlaw and it's a tricky but so far well done act to balance that action with with Bizarro's very well intentioned personality.

When Bizarro was being hold and questioned by Batwoman before Artemis released him, his tone and facial expression really felt like a totally different, dangerous person. This complexity would put more drama for Jason and Artemis to handle.

Never in real life should any comic book characters decisions be applied but there's also no denying Jason's situation and what he grew up with in Gotham is very much almost a story out of real life.

Totally agree with you.

[TheCape]

pressure_by_the_blackcat-d85m1ka.jpg
More Batman and Sons.

[magpieM]

Now there's an idea. What if Willis turns out to have committed a horrible crime?

It seems that there are some inconsistency about him. Was he in jail because of petty crimes, or to serve a life sentence? He was planning something extraordinary as his "redemption". Don't know what his ground is now.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Variant for 15