Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[kiwiliko]

Ummmmmmmmmmm...what? I know you probably didn't mean for that to come off as homophobic (Hopefully), but your wording really makes it come off that way. (From my experience only racists,homophobes and other bigots talk about "pushing agendas" like this in comics.)

Me personally? I could see Jay as bi. Don't ship him with Roy though, primarily because, in canon, he's never really interacted with anyone actually resembling Roy Harper.

Lobdell has clearly mentioned through twitter hinting Artemis as a character who sees the person not the gender. I wouldn't be surprised if offside we find out it's not an entire team of straight people even if I think so far it's rhato is strongest without getting caught up in romance the way nightwing has.

Agree with Assam though, Jason also feels very much sees person not gender to me personally. Maybe it feels tainted because a good deal of the crowd pushing for bi Jason also pushed latino Jason for all the wrong reasons.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I meant that in-canon, I've never seen Jason interact with someone I would call Roy, as opposed to non-canon material, AKA fanfiction, where the two ARE written properly as friends.

That is your head-canon then. Canon is everything that Editorial considers official part of the character story, and in this case, Jason and Roy were best friends for more than five years.

Lobdell has clearly mentioned through twitter hinting Artemis as a character who sees the person not the gender. I wouldn't be surprised if offside we find out it's not an entire team of straight people even if I think so far it's rhato is strongest without getting caught up in romance the way nightwing has.

Agree with Assam though, Jason also feels very much sees person not gender to me personally. Maybe it feels tainted because a good deal of the crowd pushing for bi Jason also pushed latino Jason for all the wrong reasons.

Not under Lobdell

[G-Potion]

That is your head-canon then. Canon is everything that Editorial considers official part of the character story, and in this case, Jason and Roy were best friends for more than five years.



Not under Lobdell

Praise to the man. But I would still want Jason to see person not gender. If the relationship is particularly deep, I wouldn't want gender to hinder it from developing into something more.

[Assam]

Lobdell has clearly mentioned through twitter hinting Artemis as a character who sees the person not the gender. I wouldn't be surprised if offside we find out it's not an entire team of straight people even if I think so far it's rhato is strongest without getting caught up in romance the way nightwing has.

Agree with Assam though, Jason also feels very much sees person not gender to me personally. Maybe it feels tainted because a good deal of the crowd pushing for bi Jason also pushed latino Jason for all the wrong reasons.

You've got bi and pan mixed up. Bi-sexual means you're attracted to men and women, while pansexual means you don't see gender.

Also, as far as changes to Jason's background go, the only one I'm really fond of, and even then I go back and forth on whether I'd want it canon, is the fun fan theory/fanfic element that he's actually Shiva's son, making him and Cass half-siblings.

But I would still want Jason to see person not gender. If the relationship is particularly deep, I wouldn't want gender to hinder it from developing into something more.

I personally hate when people try to say that changing a characters sexuality is the same thing as changing their race. One is fluid, the other is not. I was not pansexual my entire life. If I was, I'm pretty sure my dad would have kicked me out of the house when I was in middle school. (He wasn't exactly a tolerant man)

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

You guys realize that is the exact same reasoning that Lobdell is answering there, right?

[kiwiliko]

You guys realize that is the exact same reasoning that Lobdell is answering there, right?

Apologies, bi and pan are ones I tend to have trouble with remembering the definitions for.
I'm actually not familiar with what reference Lobdell's making but I assumed it sounded like he was saying he never wants a bi or latino Jason. Regardless I think I might be seeing pan Jason with the whole person not gender but these are personal impressions, it is interesting to hear some of you guys see the same sort of vibe for Jay too though.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Apologies, bi and pan are ones I tend to have trouble with remembering the definitions for.
I'm actually not familiar with what reference Lobdell's making but I assumed it sounded like he was saying he never wants a bi or latino Jason. Regardless I think I might be seeing pan Jason with the whole person not gender but these are personal impressions, it is interesting to hear some of you guys see the same sort of vibe for Jay too though.

When rebirth started Lobdell got flooded with tweets of people advocating for a bi and/or Latino Jason based on Lobdell's knack of writing Jason as a smartass and using arguments like the ones you guys are making right now ("Jason shouldn't care for gender if the emotion is real" "Wouldn't be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms?" and so on)The whole thing was blowing out of proportion so Lobdell made that tweet, basically saying that Jason's preference and race are what it is (ie. Caucasian, straight) and he won't be the guy who would change them.

[G-Potion]

I personally hate when people try to say that changing a characters sexuality is the same thing as changing their race. One is fluid, the other is not. I was not pansexual my entire life. If I was, I'm pretty sure my dad would have kicked me out of the house when I was in middle school. (He wasn't exactly a tolerant man)

I agree. While I'm totally fine with his response to fan demands, because those were seriously out of line, so a little sacarsm as fireback is good. That said, whether he does something or not in his work, I hope its not what he really believes in because like you, I think attraction/orientation is fluid and not comparable to race at all.

[kiwiliko]

When rebirth started Lobdell got flooded with tweets of people advocating for a bi and/or Latino Jason based on Lobdell's knack of writing Jason as a smartass and using arguments like the ones you guys are making right now ("Jason shouldn't care for gender if the emotion is real" "Wouldn't be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms?" and so on)The whole thing was blowing out of proportion so Lobdell made that tweet, basically saying that Jason's preference and race are what it is (ie. Caucasian, straight) and he won't be the guy who would change them.

Fair enough.
The drama probably just made it worse but I think given what Winick said in interview, it's not as baseless as "wouldn't it be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms"

Actually I've been meaning to link this for a bit now.
http://quipquipquip.tumblr.com/post/...-been-randomly
It's a pretty long analysis post for one author on how they personally interpreted his character and granted I have my own agreements/disagreements with it, it does bring up Jason's character in relation to gender that I thought was an interesting read. He does play like an antithesis to the expected masculine badboy role but particularly his sympathy and strong feelings towards female prostitutes aren't seen a lot in how most male characters are written. How his character interacts with gender is kinda off topic from sexuality at his point but it was an interesting read and I'm curious to hear other thoughts on it as well.

[kiwiliko]

I agree. While I'm totally fine with his response to fan demands, because those were seriously out of line, so a little sacarsm as fireback is good. That said, whether he does something or not in his work, I hope its not what he really believes in because like you, I think attraction/orientation is fluid and not comparable to race at all.

^double agreed.
The guy can at least be appreciated for keeping cool and just the right bit of bite back.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Fair enough.
The drama probably just made it worse but I think given what Winick said in interview, it's not as baseless as "wouldn't it be neat if Jason weren't shackled by gender norms"

Actually I've been meaning to link this for a bit now.
http://quipquipquip.tumblr.com/post/...-been-randomly
It's a pretty long analysis post for one author on how they personally interpreted his character and granted I have my own agreements/disagreements with it, it does bring up Jason's character in relation to gender that I thought was an interesting read. He does play like an antithesis to the expected masculine badboy role but particularly his sympathy and strong feelings towards female prostitutes aren't seen a lot in how most male characters are written. How his character interacts with gender is kinda off topic from sexuality at his point but it was an interesting read and I'm curious to hear other thoughts on it as well.

Interesting read but awfully outdated. Current Jason is an entirely different beast from that the author used for their analysis.

[dietrich]

Bat self defence

[Assam]

Jason learns that Cass is into Shakespeare:

https://twitter.com/NoahDoka/status/926142582777724928

[RedBird]

Married couple? I haven't watched them, but I hope they aren't pushing the bi Jason agenda.

Uh, not that there would be anything wrong with Jason being Bi, but no. I didnt mean in a romantic sense. I meant it in the genre of buddy cop kinda stuff where the characters are (usually) dudes who are super close, completely understand one another, and underneath all the jokey jabs, nagging and ribbing that they really care about each other.

[RedBird]

Jason learns that Cass is into Shakespeare:

https://twitter.com/NoahDoka/status/926142582777724928

Daww how cute

I REALLY REALLY wish the fact that they both enjoyed Shakespeare was brought up. What a great connective point to start some kind of dialogue between them.