Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[magpieM]

And speaking of romance, I think the closest thing we have right now is Jason & Artemis. I remember that it was pushed a little by the editor many issues ago. In the earlier interview Lobdell did not seem to be very keen to put them together just because they are in one team. Editor and a lot of readers like their interactions. Not sure what's Lobdell's opinion now, especially after the editor had changed.

Do you guys like the romance in their relationship keeping growing? It's fun to see that in issue #15 Jason was talking about his previous brave action while Artemis was distracted: "..., 'Batman who?' Then I kissed Catwoman right on the lips. And we flew away on a magic unicorn with dyslexia. ...Are you even listening to me?" (Cat and Bat are engaged now...)

I'm OK if their relationship continues to warm up. But on the other hand, Lobdell said he preferred some drama, namely something like Romeo and Juliet. I wonder if he had anyone in mind already? Or maybe just a vague idea. My knowledge about DC characters is very limited. Imagine Jason falls in love with someone, who is from a clan against the Bats, or someone Batman strongly disapproves. I have no idea who would be the candidate.

Overall, I like Jason & Artemis being together. But it'd be even better for me to see some amazing drama in Jason's romance. I'm not a strong supporter for any ships, nor do I mind if this "Juliet" is a woman or man. It's just my personal view.

[Aioros22]

Do we have way to know who pushed/is/was pushing for the idea? I`m not interely sure Loedbell doesn`t have that as a possible endgame from the earlier stages of Rebirth.

[Aioros22]

It's not him who they call bigot.

There's a popular Jason blogger that got called a bitch and bigot for saying that Jason is straight. Not to mention the bi latino fiasco where they literally wished for Lobdedll to die and attacked people who dared to calm the situation by calling them a bigot homophobic white trash. The tumbler fanbase is simply awful and the reason why I dislike the "bi" subject with Jason (of course not all them like that, but people who do these awful things are always louder unfortunately and give a bad name to their community).

****, that`s deep.

Deeply stupid. Some fandom want so desperatly have what they feel is outlawed in themselves (and I`m using "feel" freely I know, it still is very much eyed upon these days, stupidily 2.0) in the character they like that they will force upon others and even creators and end up being "those guys".

Should a character bend or come out just because of some fanbase? I rather think what the character represents already (ideals, themes!) is more meaningful than sexual identities or should be. Then again I`m mostly a straight European guy with a bi experience that never have felt any sort of pushover abuse because I mostly dig chicks and thus don`t scare people blah blah, so what do I know.

[G-Potion]

I can't deny his relationships of emotional intensity do tend to be with other males but at the same, majority of the surrounding cast in batfamily is male and the last female he had any intensity with was Talia in which canon does end up having sleep together.

It's true and that's why Talia is up there as one of the characters I want Jason to interact with the most. She has with Jason what he has with other males characters, in that their dynamic doesn't have one label to successfully describe it nor does it necessarily aim to be anything specific in the end and because of it, that they can take it to unsafe places, messed up as it might be. Jason and Duela is also a strong one for me. Of all the romantic relationships that Jason has had, none of them comes close to being as nearly as interesting. I do think Essence had potential though, and wish to see her again. With Artemis I still don't have enough of her treating Jason like a 5-year-old yet.

I know some people have decided immediately they see father/son or big bro/little bro dynamics for Biz and Jason but I have a waaay harder time trying to describe their relationship just because we've teetered from Jason taking a guiding role to playing videogames with Biz like an equal friend up to Biz hiding letters because he thinks this is what keeps Jason from being hurt. It's got some extremes happening in terms of power shifting and changing dynamics and chances are this could be up there with Roy/Jason in terms of platonic love that moves beyond a typical friendship. The changing dynamics do add for serious emotional intensity and I think if a calmer dynamic Artemis weren't there to keep that balance, it might even be too much too fast for this book.

Yes I don't see it as quite clearly one thing or another either. And if what Bizarro is doing is gonna have repercussion later, it's a risk they are taking with the already loved status quo. I love it. As for Jason and Artemis, I'm fine with how they are, and if they later end up together that's good too. However at the moment I think the teases have been coming a bit too much too soon and I don't really feel earned yet. Granted, they could totally be read as platonic but I don't trust that was the intention from editorial.

This sort of thing does make me wonder if a good deal of ships out there are really meant to be romantic or if some of them just have no way of trying to communicate "this relationship is beyond friendship into platonic love" but will never get treated as that love because it wasn't deemed romantic love.

I think this is how I see ships as well. As long as it presents a dynamic with emotional complexity and intensity, I'm on it, whether it's the romantic variety or not. Fictional sexual tension bores me to death to be honest.

Also @G I am so sorry I keep word vomitting all my replies to your posts (do love all these discussions you bring up though.)

Nah keep throwing words at me kiwi. It's good read really. And I have to admit I'm glad that we're at a point where we can bring this into a polite discussion without kneejerk reactions because of its affiliation to fanfic, tumblr and whatnot.

[G-Potion]

I agree. Romance is not always necessary to be the deepest interaction/feelings that two people can have. A lot of fans began to ship Bruce/Jason after UTRH movie. Well it's true that there was too much love and hate between them and it did look like Jason was over-obsessed by Batman. But my personal feeling about it is like: turning the nature between their relationship into romance is kind of making it "paler". Their relationship involves real blood & death, intense hate/revenge/obsession, and eventually, ultimate morality conflict about loyalty and justice... they all far beyond romance.

I feel this so much magpieM. Moreoever, because existing dynamics with these characters are already that rich and unpredictable, I can hardly be enthusiastic when presented with a character who is prematurely dictated to be a future romantic partner. And it happens so many times with female characters.

[G-Potion]

Do we have way to know who pushed/is/was pushing for the idea? I`m not interely sure Loedbell doesn`t have that as a possible endgame from the earlier stages of Rebirth.

I think it's best that you judge it by the man's words. Start from 1:08:00.

https://soundcloud.com/down-and-nerd...nd-the-outlaws

[Rise]

Taila was a manipulative bitch who used Jason for her own selfish reasons. She might have cared about him in a way or another, but it's wasn't her motive behind everything she did with him. The whole sleeping together happened simply because Winick wanted to show that were in wrong and Batman was right since he didn't understand why people took Jason's side over Batman's in the UTRH storyline, that's it. I also don't think Jason liked her much either.

There were women he cared far more about and had better relationship with like Nataila, Sasha, and Ducra.

more often male ones (Bruce, Dick, Roy, Black Mask, Bizarro...) are usually the ones filled with more intense emotions and all

What?

[G-Potion]

Taila was a manipulative bitch who used Jason for her own selfish reasons. She might have cared about him in a way or another, but it's wasn't her motive behind everything she did with him. The whole sleeping together happened simply because Winick wanted to show that were in wrong and Batman was right since he didn't understand why people took Jason's side over Batman's in the UTRH storyline, that's it. I also don't think Jason liked her much either.

There were women he cared far more about and had better relationship with like Nataila, Sasha, and Ducra.

I don't feel the same way you do about Talia, but that's besides the point. I was talking about how these dynamics interest me because they are complex and risky. It doesn't make a better relationship nor does it mean Jason likes her better. It just means it's more interesting to me.

What?

I meant what I said. For Dick it's conflicting between admiration, envy, bitterness you name it. For Black Mask, I'm simplifying it but there is hatred from Jason's part, but on the other hand, the mind game and the dad card he plays on Jason makes this not as simple because he does hit a nerve. I don't mean intense as a positive thing. It's just what it is.

[Rise]

I don't feel the same way you do about Talia, but that's besides the point. I was talking about how these dynamics interest me because they are complex and risky. It doesn't make a better relationship nor does it mean Jason likes her better. It just means it's more interesting to me.

And I was stating my opinion about her relationship with Jason, not her character. Which why I didn't qoute anyone.

As far as I concerned, she was pretty selfish with him and she used him to get Bruce's love. It's not a dynamic I care to see more of it since Talia is a mess of a character now.

I meant what I said. For Dick it's conflicting between admiration, envy, bitterness you name it. For Black Mask, I'm simplifying it but there is hatred from Jason's part, but on the other hand, the mind game and the dad card he plays on Jason makes this not as simple because he does hit a nerve. I don't mean intense as a positive thing. It's just what it is.

Jason and Dick don't have an actual relationship since the writers can't make up their mind about what their relationship supposed to be. The "envy, bitterness" was never about Dick and it was always about Bruce himself. Jason also never admired Dick as a person since he was never involved in his life and he only admired his accomplishments as Robin.

And he doesn't have a relationship with BM either to put it at the same catogry as Bruce, Roy and Bizarro. The dynamic between them in the first arc was about challenging Jason's views and morals and that's it.

Heck, Jason actually has more of connection and intense relationship with the joker than any of these two since they both impacted each other in a big way.

[Alycat]

If Jason and Artemis don't happen then I will think about writing a slightly angry tweet to Lobdell and never sending it.

[G-Potion]

Jason and Dick don't have an actual relationship since the writers can't make up their mind about what their relationship supposed to be. The "envy, bitterness" was never about Dick and it was always about Bruce himself. Jason also never admired Dick as a person since he was never involved in his life and he only admired his accomplishments as Robin.

And he doesn't have a relationship with BM either to put it at the same catogry as Bruce, Roy and Bizarro. The dynamic between them in the first arc was about challenging Jason's views and morals and that's it.

Heck, Jason actually has more of connection and intense relationship with the joker than any of these two since they both impacted each other in a big way.

Personally I feel Jason has always respected, if not admired, Dick to an extent, just as he can respect any capable vigilante (not at hero worship level, but again, I don't read it that way from the annual either). As for his more negative emotions, sure Bruce was at the heart of it, but it doesn't change the fact that Jason spent his years keeping up with Dick's achievement, and thinking that Bruce would have done more for Dick. I don't think Jason pre-Rebirth was unbiased enough to not let it bleed into how he feels about Dick. On the other hand, I would think Dick harbors some guilt about his neglect of Jason as well.

Anyway, I didn't put Dick and BM together with the others because I think the dynamics are equally strong. I did it because I think they all have that tension and conflict I find lacking when it comes to Jason and many female characters.

Joker while affected Jason in big way, I don't think there's any need to explore their dynamics. Pure hatred. That's it to me. And Joker has become too boring for me to even consider him in any way.

[G-Potion]

If Jason and Artemis don't happen then I will think about writing a slightly angry tweet to Lobdell and never sending it.

If you're not sending it why stop at slightly angry? Go wild.

[Aioros22]

Taila was a manipulative bitch who used Jason for her own selfish reasons. She might have cared about him in a way or another, but it's wasn't her motive behind everything she did with him. The whole sleeping together happened simply because Winick wanted to show that were in wrong and Batman was right since he didn't understand why people took Jason's side over Batman's in the UTRH storyline, that's it. I also don't think Jason liked her much either.

There were women he cared far more about and had better relationship with like Nataila, Sasha, and Ducra.


What?

Ehhh, I`m on the fence about that. Since Jason was the antagonist he had to write Batman with the rigtheous moral stance to constrast but he didn`t write Jason in the wrong either.

UTRH works the best when both sides preset a valid philosophy on crimefighting and I believe the consequent takes on it like in Arkham knight, shed the same light. Jason`s views are perverted by what happened to him but then again...so is Batman`s.

[Rise]

Personally I feel Jason has always respected, if not admired, Dick to an extent, just as he can respect any capable vigilante (not at hero worship level, but again, I don't read it that way from the annual either). As for his more negative emotions, sure Bruce was at the heart of it, but it doesn't change the fact that Jason spent his years keeping up with Dick's achievement, and thinking that Bruce would have done more for Dick. I don't think Jason pre-Rebirth was unbiased enough to not let it bleed into how he feels about Dick. On the other hand, I would think Dick harbors some guilt about his neglect of Jason as well.

Anyway, I didn't put Dick and BM together with the others because I think the dynamics are equally strong. I did it because I think they all have that tension and conflict I find lacking when it comes to Jason and many female characters.

Joker while affected Jason in big way, I don't think there's any need to explore their dynamics. Pure hatred. That's it to me. And Joker has become too boring for me to even consider him in any way.

I personally think he just respected what he accomplished, but not him personally. I have read all of Jason's Robin stories from pre to post crisis and I can count in one hand the times he thought or mentioned him (including his interactions with him) and the reason why he thought of him as measurement was really all because he wanted Bruce to trust him as his robin. His insecurity about "Bruce would have done this for him, but not for me!" happened after he come back which was mainly due to his mental state and the fact there was only him and Dick in Bruce's life before he died. It was unforuntly overplayed later due to the laziness of the writers.

I actually think Jason and Joker dynamic is still untapped potential since they will always be connected to each othet. Their twisted dynamic in AK:G was the highlight and the reason why I thing they could do more in the main universe instead of the awful DOTF story.

[Rise]

Ehhh, I`m on the fence about that. Since Jason was the antagonist he had to write Batman with the rigtheous moral stance to constrast but he didn`t write Jason in the wrong either.

UTRH works the best when both sides preset a valid philosophy on crimefighting and I believe the consequent takes on it like in Arkham knight, shed the same light. Jason`s views are perverted by what happened to him but then again...so is Batman`s.

I don't think so either, but he stated in interview that he was surprised that many fans supported Jason instead of Batman and wanted to show that him and Talia were in wrong in LD.

Winick changed his view on the situation years later, tho.