Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Kalethas31]

Jason needs new teammates

[Assam]

Jason needs new teammates

I disagree but that does raise a good point.

With Bizarro and Artemis and previously Roy and Kory, Jason had grown with his group to be "True Companions." Lobdell managed to differentiate the trios by going from a loving but ultimately toxic relationship (at least from what I've heard) to a trio which reflects a number of different family dynamics. But...you can't keep doing this. You can't just keep giving Jason different best friends. Anything following the current team would feel forced and kind of wrong, unless you did something completely different like make the new group hate each other but forced to stick together. Sooner or later this book is gonna get cancelled and the Dark Trinity won't be around. And at that point, Jason's future would be up in the air.

[SpentShrimp]

I don't think there's any special reason for it. It's just what happens. Titles bleed out readers until their numbers stabilize. It's just that some titles (Ones with more popular characters and brands) stabilize at higher numbers. And some titles stabilize faster than others, boiling down to the core fanbase. Look at all of the lower selling Bat titles (which is all of them except for Batman, 'Tec and Nightwing) and the only one which has stabilized is Batgirl, having stayed around 22,000 for a few months now. (At the lowest numbers an ongoing Batgirl title has ever seen, but regardless) Batman Beyond and BoP still continue to lose tons of readers as well, as does Batwoman, which, despite having half as many issues as the rest of these books, is already selling less than all but BoP.

The fact is that ComicJason's fanbase is niche. Look back to Red Hood/Arsenal's sales and they were at 17,000 by issue 10.The quality of the book is what allows it to be even as high as it is now.

I get that this is comic book Jason, but this is also the character who is one of the most requested to appear in live action format, a central character in one of the most popular DC animated movies, was one of the most highly requested for Injustice and Young Justice, and is becoming cosplayed more and more. With the popularity outside of comics, there really isn't a reason why he shouldn't be in a comic that is selling less than 30K.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I disagree but that does raise a good point.

With Bizarro and Artemis and previously Roy and Kory, Jason had grown with his group to be "True Companions." Lobdell managed to differentiate the trios by going from a loving but ultimately toxic relationship (at least from what I've heard) to a trio which reflects a number of different family dynamics. But...you can't keep doing this. You can't just keep giving Jason different best friends. Anything following the current team would feel forced and kind of wrong, unless you did something completely different like make the new group hate each other but forced to stick together. Sooner or later this book is gonna get cancelled and the Dark Trinity won't be around. And at that point, Jason's future would be up in the air.

There was nothing toxic about the previous Outlaws and anyonewho thinks that has never properly read the previous series.

I get that this is comic book Jason, but this is also the character who is one of the most requested to appear in live action format, a central character in one of the most popular DC animated movies, was one of the most highly requested for Injustice and Young Justice, and is becoming cosplayed more and more. With the popularity outside of comics, there really isn't a reason why he shouldn't be in a comic that is selling less than 30K.

Appearances in other media rarely translate as an increase in comic book sales. Just look at Marvel, despite Star-Lord and Winter Soldier having prominent roles on the MCU they struggle to keep a book.

[Assam]

I get that this is comic book Jason, but this is also the character who is one of the most requested to appear in live action format, a central character in one of the most popular DC animated movies, was one of the most highly requested for Injustice and Young Justice, and is becoming cosplayed more and more. With the popularity outside of comics, there really isn't a reason why he shouldn't be in a comic that is selling less than 30K.

It really is just that simple though. 99% of the time, popularity outside of comics does not translate to sales. If it did, Green Arrow wouldn't be in the 25,000 range, Harley and Wonder Woman would be closer to Batman's sales, Jaime Reyes wouldn't be on his third volume in a row to sell awfully and Supergirl wouldn't need Artgerm variant covers in order to not sell like crap.

[Assam]

There was nothing toxic about the previous Outlaws and anyonewho thinks that has never properly read the previous series.

I always admit that I haven't read past the first storyline. The impression I've gotten from reading what you guys say was that Jason left Roy because he felt he was a bad influence on him. If that's false, I'd be interested to learn what I misunderstood.

[kiwiliko]

I disagree but that does raise a good point.

With Bizarro and Artemis and previously Roy and Kory, Jason had grown with his group to be "True Companions." Lobdell managed to differentiate the trios by going from a loving but ultimately toxic relationship (at least from what I've heard) to a trio which reflects a number of different family dynamics. But...you can't keep doing this. You can't just keep giving Jason different best friends. Anything following the current team would feel forced and kind of wrong, unless you did something completely different like make the new group hate each other but forced to stick together. Sooner or later this book is gonna get cancelled and the Dark Trinity won't be around. And at that point, Jason's future would be up in the air.

The same could be said for many other books too however. I enjoy Nightwing as a character but watching him go through romance after romance in his own book and rehashing previous girlfriends already says to me this is Nightwing's version of a repeating formula. After Nightwing ends, where really are they going to take Dick that isn't just introducing new villains or a new girlfriend. Dick himself as a character hasn't gone through as much change despite having twice as many issues out by now. Ultimately it's up to whatever the next writer decides they want the characters to go and the joy of it is we never know when someones going to hit a good new beat. I do personally think there's still more to go with Jason that won't make it hard to leave the teammates theme behind because he's certainly got quite a few internal conflicts ongoing that aren't going to be fixed or addressed through this single rhato run.

Also out of curiosity because that wasn't the vibe I got from the Roy Kory run, what part was pointed out as toxic? I get the theme of their trio had dysfunctional misfits in it but toxic usually implies heavier or abusive elements at least to me.

[Assam]

The same could be said for many other books too however. I enjoy Nightwing as a character but watching him go through romance after romance in his own book and rehashing previous girlfriends already says to me this is Nightwing's version of a repeating formula. After Nightwing ends, where really are they going to take Dick that isn't just introducing new villains or a new girlfriend. Dick himself as a character hasn't gone through as much change despite having twice as many issues out by now. Ultimately it's up to whatever the next writer decides they want the characters to go and the joy of it is we never know when someones going to hit a good new beat. I do personally think there's still more to go with Jason that won't make it hard to leave the teammates theme behind because he's certainly got quite a few internal conflicts ongoing that aren't going to be fixed or addressed through this single rhato run.

It's definitely a problem for plenty of characters, and as a fan, I don't want Jay to fall into this trap. Again, there is room for something different to explore with the Outlaws, but a new team would still be risky IMO. Additionally, would anyone besides Lobdell (Who won't write Jason forever) want to do it/ do it well? And of course there's the fact that if RHatO were to eventually get canned for low sales, DC's reaction probably wouldn't be to just relaunch RHatO or a solo Red Hood title (Which with proper writing, I do think could definitely work). And that's why I find this more interesting than other cases. Jason has spent over a decade either as a villain and/or antagonist or as part of a team that's very much his; there are no Outlaws without Jason. Without either of those, what would happen to him then?

Also out of curiosity because that wasn't the vibe I got from the Roy Kory run, what part was pointed out as toxic? I get the theme of their trio had dysfunctional misfits in it but toxic usually implies heavier or abusive elements at least to me.

As I said above, I was just basing what I said off what I've read in this thread and am happy to be corrected.

[SpentShrimp]

It really is just that simple though. 99% of the time, popularity outside of comics does not translate to sales. If it did, Green Arrow wouldn't be in the 25,000 range, Harley and Wonder Woman would be closer to Batman's sales, Jaime Reyes wouldn't be on his third volume in a row to sell awfully and Supergirl wouldn't need Artgerm variant covers in order to not sell like crap.

Appearances in other media rarely translate as an increase in comic book sales. Just look at Marvel, despite Star-Lord and Winter Soldier having prominent roles on the MCU they struggle to keep a book.

You both make good points, but when you look at the sales the Rebirth title had when it first came out, it's fair to say that it should easily stay around 30K. With the point about Star-Lord; he's only just recently gained huge popularity outside of comics.

[Godlike13]

This was the third Red Hood book launched with Lobdell and its falling to where the others fell to. But since this is the 3rd go with Lobdell, they are probably ok with that.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

You both make good points, but when you look at the sales the Rebirth title had when it first came out, it's fair to say that it should easily stay around 30K. With the point about Star-Lord; he's only just recently gained huge popularity outside of comics.

And we go back to the issue we've discussed plenty already. The book needs to have actual exposure from editorial. Get its creative team at cons, make ads for it, make it part of panels and announcements.

[G-Potion]

You both make good points, but when you look at the sales the Rebirth title had when it first came out, it's fair to say that it should easily stay around 30K. With the point about Star-Lord; he's only just recently gained huge popularity outside of comics.

I don't know if you have seen it, but the lack of promotion for this particular title given its quality is astounding enough that there was an article about it. A book shoudn't struggle alone trying to gain more readership. Where's editorial support in this?

[G-Potion]

Jason needs new teammates

Why is it?

[G-Potion]

I disagree but that does raise a good point.

With Bizarro and Artemis and previously Roy and Kory, Jason had grown with his group to be "True Companions." Lobdell managed to differentiate the trios by going from a loving but ultimately toxic relationship (at least from what I've heard) to a trio which reflects a number of different family dynamics. But...you can't keep doing this. You can't just keep giving Jason different best friends. Anything following the current team would feel forced and kind of wrong, unless you did something completely different like make the new group hate each other but forced to stick together. Sooner or later this book is gonna get cancelled and the Dark Trinity won't be around. And at that point, Jason's future would be up in the air.

As others have said, I don't think it's true what you said about toxicity. But I had that same idea about a group who hate each other but are forced to stick together the moment I saw that fanart of Red Hood/Deathstroke and one other guy I forgot his name. Imagine a situation where Jason has to work with mercenary/killers and at the same time has to sabotage their effort in killing every mark they come across. Or a group where they have to work together for the time being, but with a clear understanding that at the end, it will be them fighting each other.

[SpentShrimp]

And we go back to the issue we've discussed plenty already. The book needs to have actual exposure from editorial. Get its creative team at cons, make ads for it, make it part of panels and announcements.

I can agree with that. I do think there are still improvements that can be made, but it is one of the most consistent titles from Rebirth.