Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[G-Potion]

That`s an interesting point, how do you convey different ethics without unecessary killing? I think there`s ways.

Take over criminal enterprises and use the assets, break some bones, take down some dictator without any say from the UN or Justice League, take down currupt politicians or cops and hustle their assets, go for the kill to superpowered characters because those are dime a dozen and when your or someone innocent`s life is on the line you do it because it`s the line you cross.

Not much different than what he was. I don`t see that promise as cheating his identity, he`s working to better himself until he does what he has to. It`s a way to feel less enraged with everything.

There`s a bit of the "Driver" in him as far as that concept goes.

Yes some of these we've been seeing in Rebirth and more in the N52. He doesn't have to take out known big names. Just create someone for him to take out.

I wish there's more of crime lord Jason. The duplicity in this setting would highlight his role much more.

[G-Potion]

Anyhow, whether he kills or not - or better yet, whether he doesn`t kill unecessarily or not - is not the bane of different ethics, to me. I think shooting the Joker and leave him paralyzed or throw him into an electrical fence can be every bit of lethal force as a bullet to the head.

And we all know the later won`t ever happen unless they make a Joker in the Lazarus thing (at least when you do it credit me Snyder).

And that's why I consider him not saving Black Mask staying true to his ethics.

[Rise]

But then how do you keep showing his willingness if he isn't shown crossing the line ever? And I don't think it makes him look bad because we all know the big names can't be offed, and it's also true that Jason's brand of justice is subjective and emotional.

It does to me because I think it is dumb and quite hypocrite of him to go around killing every criminal he meet, but doesn't bother to kill the ones who have done far worse.

Willings to cross the line in sense that he inspires fear in them with his ruthlessness. Makes the moments when he actually lose it big and impactfull and not a regular thing.

I think the events in RH/A affected him in a big way. Enough that he was willing to work under Batman's rule, to earn a father's love so to speak. Words from Black Mask but I also think of it as a meta commentary on Jason's state of mind. He left Roy out of selflessness and it opens the need to have someone to be close to.

I don't think the events in RH/A even come close to what UTRH did to him mentally so if he was pretty ok in N52, why he suddenly wouldn't be in Rebirth?

And why Jason even trying to earn Bruce's approval and "love" anyway? I don't think Jason even see him as a father anymore nor he should because I think what happened in UTRH disappointed Jason so much in Bruce that he doesn't except anything from him anymore.

I think Jason and Bruce will always cares about each no matter (and that Jason already has Bruce's love), but things will never be the same between them which what makes their relationship tragic and their moments (whether when they fights or have a nice moment) will always be filled with intense emotions.

[Aioros22]

Absolutely. You can say is not as final as a bullet done but someone with such a taste of power being paralyzed without moving a finger will definatly feel he wished he was dead. Of course If and when Roman comes back and badder than ever, Jason will have to reflect on that promise.

"If I had put a cap on your ass you wouldn`t be here bothering me or mine any longer".

I think the issue is the duplicity of the Outlaws not being highlighted as much as character interaction and the family bonds. After the first arc you had two issues about it and one ends up with a big Jason and Bizarro moment (issue#7). But Loedbell still drops cues. For example, last issue why was Artemis on ropes and Jason in chains, half naked (likely after been stripped and beaten up) with guns locked at him?

One, because I think Loedbell is making a visual cue to Martson`s amazon and ropes iconography. Two, because unlike Artemis, Jason as Red Hood has a known criminal rap sheet the size of a small country, assasinations included. Black Mask knows him by reputation. Deathstroke knew him by reputation. Amanda Waller knows him by reputation.

They just need to bring it more often and particularly about Artemis as well, especially after her deal in Qvrac.

[Aioros22]

And why Jason even trying to earn Bruce's approval and "love" anyway? I don't think Jason even see him as a father anymore nor he should because I think what happened in UTRH disappointed Jason so much in Bruce that he doesn't except anything from him anymore.

I think Jason and Bruce will always cares about each no matter (and that Jason already has Bruce's love), but things will never be the same between them which what makes their relationship tragic and their moments (whether when they fights or have a nice moment) will always be filled with intense emotions.

He very much sees Bruce as his father and always have. Part of the reason the dinamic is tragic and emotional is because none of them fully give up and give in. It`s a play on the old saying of you can never come back home but each of us make amends with the past and parents as best as we can.

I can get behind Jason honoring a promise if it also helps himself be a better person or feel like one because to me that`s not the same as being a puppy dog who`s only doing it for Bruce. Everytime he`s been called it`s usually when something big is going on (including the Diner since it was about Bane targetting all of them). I just wish they did it less because it both compromises his act and his current character arc but that`s not the same as not doing it altogether.

[G-Potion]

Absolutely. You can say is not as final as a bullet done but someone with such a taste of power being paralyzed without moving a finger will definatly feel he wished he was dead. Of course If and when Roman comes back and badder than ever, Jason will have to reflect on that promise.

"If I had put a cap on your ass you wouldn`t be here bothering me or mine any longer".

It's why even paralyzing wouldn't work on Joker. He will come back. And Jason already knows better than leaving him alive. That line works on anyone, once, but not the Joker ever.

I think the issue is the duplicity of the Outlaws not being highlighted as much as character interaction and the family bonds. After the first arc you had two issues about it and one ends up with a big Jason and Bizarro moment (issue#7). But Loedbell still drops cues. For example, last issue why was Artemis on ropes and Jason in chains, half naked (likely after been stripped and beaten up) with guns locked at him?

One, because I think Loedbell is making a visual cue to Martson`s amazon and ropes iconography. Two, because unlike Artemis, Jason as Red Hood has a known criminal rap sheet the size of a small country, assasinations included. Black Mask knows him by reputation. Deathstroke knew him by reputation. Amanda Waller knows him by reputation.

They just need to bring it more often and particularly about Artemis as well, especially after her deal in Qvrac.

Good point!

[Rise]

He very much sees Bruce as his father and always have. Part of the reason the dinamic is tragic and emotional is because none of them fully give up and give in. It`s a play on the old saying of you can never come back home but each of us make amends with the past and parents as best as we can.

I can get behind Jason honoring a promise if it also helps himself be a better person or feel like one because to me that`s not the same as being a puppy dog who`s only doing it for Bruce. Everytime he`s been called it`s usually when something big is going on (including the Diner since it was about Bane targetting all of them). I just wish they did it less because it both compromises his act and his current character arc but that`s not the same as not doing it altogether.

I disagree because I don't think he does. Like I said, what happened in UTRH disappointed him a lot.

He for sure did when he was Robin which why he was so pained when came back and find out that Bruce didn't avenge him and even "replaced" him. Jason still cares about him no matter how much he tries to deny it, I just don't there's any good sense of him trying to get his approval and why he even bother.

[Aioros22]

Looking at iconic series like LupinIII and the Green Hornet I think what Loedbell might be missing is the ol Law enforcer rival type. A well written and cool character from a major agency (real or otherwise) who targets Red Hood for a number of Hits and by the course of the series becomes a sort of rival who is never really sure where Jason`s aliance lies.

[G-Potion]

Looking at iconic series like LupinIII and the Green Hornet I think what Loedbell might be missing is the ol Law enforcer rival type. A well written and cool character from a major agency (real or otherwise) who targets Red Hood for a number of Hits and by the course of the series becomes a sort of rival who is never really sure where Jason`s aliance lies.

Pitch this to Lobdell my man.

[Aioros22]

I disagree because I don't think he does. Like I said, what happened in UTRH disappointed him a lot.

He for sure did when he was Robin which why he was so pained when came back and find out that Bruce didn't avenge him and even "replaced" him. Jason still cares about him no matter how much he tries to deny it, I just don't there's any good sense of him trying to get his approval and why he even bother.

Well, I don`t think his promise was all about Bruce to begin with. The first arc is about him picking up after the ordeal with Roy and being on his own again.

Loedbell himself wrote Jason and Bruce getting closer after the events of UTRH in this very title. I know Tomasi threw a wrench later and that`s wholly on Bruce but as far as Loedbell is concerned, Jay and Bruce will always at least try reaching some middle ground. Plus, I rather he moves on from UTRH regarding any of the bats.

Basically, just because Bruce keeps being dissapointing doesn`t mean he`s not seen as a father figure. They can be shitty as anyting else.

[Aioros22]

@t G,

Got no Twitter ma man.

If someone here does and likes the idea well enough, you got my blessing.

[Rise]

Well, I don`t think his promise was all about Bruce to begin with. The first arc is about him picking up after the ordeal with Roy and being on his own again.

He could have at least try to show that it's actually not really all about him, but he didn't.

Loedbell himself wrote Jason and Bruce getting closer after the events of UTRH in this very title. I know Tomasi threw a wrench later and that`s wholly on Bruce but as far as Loedbell is concerned, Jay and Bruce will always at least try reaching some middle ground. Plus, I rather he moves on from UTRH regarding any of the bats.

I think what Lobdell did in improving their relationship was really great and I'm glad that he did and I don't even acknowledge what Tomasi did since he only did that for his cheap drama.

I didn't say that he should be stuck in UTRH nor he actually is, but there are events in someone's life that will always have an impact on them like how Jason's death will always has impact on him.

Basically, just because Bruce keeps being dissapointing doesn`t mean he`s not seen as a father figure. They can be shitty as anyting else.

That would be the case with father of blood, not a father of a choice because you will always be connected by DNA with the former.

[Assam]

Looking at iconic series like LupinIII and the Green Hornet I think what Loedbell might be missing is the ol Law enforcer rival type. A well written and cool character from a major agency (real or otherwise) who targets Red Hood for a number of Hits and by the course of the series becomes a sort of rival who is never really sure where Jason`s aliance lies.

And who should this rival be?

Harvey Bullock: Ace Detective.

Someone try to tell me Jason and Harvey playing off each other wouldn't be amazing.

Also, numbers from October came in: RHatO had its usual drop, now at 23,680. (Also, I was wrong about what I said previously, Batgirl didn't stabilize yet and is back to dropping.)

[Rise]

Harvey wouldn't be able to be a match to Jason (tho, Jason trolling Harvey would funny like he used to do when he was Robin).

The idea from Aioros22 is definitely has potential and an interesting, but it will fit a solo series better than the outlaws (which why I hope DC someday give him his own solo book because he deserves it and there are many things you can do with it).

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Lobdell has shifted his approach regarding Jason. Is not about killing anymore but rather, about delivering justice. This was clearly shown with Black Mask, killing him would've been far too easy and too kind for him but making him live imprisoned within his own body? That is the kind of justice Lobdell is aiming for with Jason. Within this mindset, Jason's approach to deal with the Joker would be rehabilitating him and making him live with the full knowledge and awareness of all the awful deed he did.