Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Rise]

I would definitely approve of this approach, but this isn't what Lobdell doing. Jason stopped killing because "I promised broose!!".

[kiwiliko]

That would be the case with father of blood, not a father of a choice because you will always be connected by DNA with the former.

At risk of bring that old argument back again, Bruce takes on a role early in Jason's life and was a huge influence during his development. Adoption does not magically make it easier for someone to just cut off a parent figure any more than blood.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

I would definitely approve of this approach, but this isn't what Lobdell doing. Jason stopped killing because "I promised broose!!".

That needs proper development.

Here's sales numbers for last month issue


105. Red Hood and the Outlaws #15 (DC) - 23,680

And this is for issue 14

102 92 Red Hood and the Outlaws 14 $3.99 DC 24,376

Hellboy's interactions with DLC characters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eR9CoFHm6Q

Pretty lazy to be honest.

[Rise]

At risk of bring that old argument back again, Bruce takes on a role early in Jason's life and was a huge influence during his development. Adoption does not magically make it easier for someone to just cut off a parent figure any more than blood.

It's actually does because it's a choice (Bruce has more responsibility towards the adoption because he is the guardian and he made the choice as adult).

If your father figure keep disappointing you over and over again, you simply stop seeing them as one while your blood father will always be yours because his blood run in your vines. If he is an awful one, he simply just not your "dad".

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

It's actually does because it's a choice (Bruce has more responsibility towards the adoption because he is the guardian and he made the choice as adult).

If your father figure keep disappointing you over and over again, you simply stop seeing them as one while your blood father will always be yours because his blood run in your vines. If he is an awful one, he simply just not your "dad".

I disagree.

Your father (or family even) is not who you are blood related but who raised you, who was for you when you needed them the most. And Bruce is absolutely that person for Jason. Jason can't give up on Bruce anymore Bruce can do the same for Jason.

[Rise]

Who said that family is just blood? I sure didn't.

The parents who conceive will always be yours and you can never deny your connection to them. Your parental figure is someone you chose and you can stop consider them a parent when they aren't even playing this role to you.

Not to mention that Jason didn't even lived that long under Bruce's wing to say that he has a "huge influence during his development". That's actually Catherine since she was the one who raised him and was a parent to him till her death so Jason can never deny her even if she wasn't his blood.

[kiwiliko]

Who said that family is just blood? I sure didn't.

The parents who conceive will always be yours and you can never deny your connection to them. Your parental figure is someone you chose and you can stop consider them a parent when they aren't even playing this role to you.

Not to mention that Jason didn't even lived that long under Bruce's wing to say that he has a "huge influence during his development". That's actually Catherine since she was the one who raised him and was a parent to him till her death so Jason can never deny her even if she wasn't his blood.

Jason is pretty undeniably was influenced by Bruce, I could point out that his entire vigilante life has a foundation in his Robin days and the training he received not to mention a good deal of UtRH is his reaction towards Bruce's lack of action. He full well can take all his immediate chances to kill the Joker but keeping him there for Bruce to see them both was a pretty obvious message to send and that doesn't happen if Bruce wasn't someone who mattered.

Blood only truly is connection as far as you acknowledge someone out there in existence created you at some point. There's no doubt Willis is an abusive afterthought for Jason in comparison to Bruce and he loses no sleep thinking like so, wether or not that changes depends on where the book is planning to go.

[Rise]

Can you please just read my previous comments so I wouldn't repeat myself like a broken record? I'm not trying to be rude here.

You know what? I will just qoute them for you.

I don't think Jason even see him as a father anymore nor he should because I think what happened in UTRH disappointed Jason so much in Bruce that he doesn't except anything from him anymore

I think Jason and Bruce will always cares about each no matter (and that Jason already has Bruce's love), but things will never be the same between them which what makes their relationship tragic and their moments (whether when they fights or have a nice moment) will always be filled with intense emotions.

I disagree because I don't think he does. Like I said, what happened in UTRH disappointed him a lot.

He for sure did (see him as father figure) when he was Robin which why he was so pained when came back and find out that Bruce didn't avenge him and even "replaced" him. Jason still cares about him no matter how much he tries to deny it, I just don't there's any good sense of him trying to get his approval and why he even bother.

Also, I never declared that Bruce has no influence on him.

[kiwiliko]

I just feel your wording contradicts what you wrote in the last few pages.
Sorry if that came off as rude, wasn't my intention to sound like that.

Jason didn't even lived that long under Bruce's wing to say that he has a "huge influence during his development".

your blood father will always be yours because his blood run in your vines.

[Rise]

Don't worry, I don't think you were rude.

And how these qoutes contradicting what I said?

I didn't deny that Bruce has influence on him, I just said that Jason didn't really grow up under his wing to say he has a "huge influence during his development" (unless you mean in meta level which is different matter).

And I never claimed that only blood can be your family because this isn't true at all, I'm just saying that you can't deny them because you are connected to them by DNA.

Jason did see Bruce as a father figure when he lived with him, but he was never enough to him that he decided to run all way to Africa to find a mother who he never meet before and Bruce kept disappointed many times that you can never blame him if he doesn't want to think of him as a father anymore.

Catherine on the hand was a different case. She was truly an example of "parent isn't just by blood" because she raised him up and never once made him doubt that she wasn't actually his brith mom. She was more of parent to him than Bruce ever was and she is the one who Jason can never stop seeing her as one.

[Aioros22]

Who said that family is just blood? I sure didn't.

The parents who conceive will always be yours and you can never deny your connection to them. Your parental figure is someone you chose and you can stop consider them a parent when they aren't even playing this role to you.

Not to mention that Jason didn't even lived that long under Bruce's wing to say that he has a "huge influence during his development". That's actually Catherine since she was the one who raised him and was a parent to him till her death so Jason can never deny her even if she wasn't his blood.

Bruce and Alfred were every bit a big influence. Catherine was a loving mother and Jason always mentions so. Her death is the first main change in his life but in the end of the day, Jason grew (physically and morally) in Wayne Manor and in their line of work.

[Aahz]

C`mon now, are we seriously now debating who the dead Robin in BvS verse is?

Now with a Nightwing movie in the works it is pretty clear, but I doubt that it was really set in stone by the time BvS as made.

[Rise]

Physically? Jason lived with Bruce when he was 12 and died at 14-15. How the heck this even compared in any way to how Catherine raised him from diapers?

Morally? Jason has a sense of right and wrong before he meet Bruce and the streets has a bigger influence in his current philosophy.

In meta way? Of course he did since he is the reason why he become a vigilante and living the way he is today.

[kiwiliko]

Jason did see Bruce as a father figure when he lived with him, but he was never enough to him that he decided to run all way to Africa to find a mother who he never meet before and Bruce kept disappointed many times that you can never blame him if he doesn't want to think of him as a father anymore.

Catherine on the hand was a different case. She was truly an example of "parent isn't just by blood" because she raised him up and never once made him doubt that she wasn't actually his brith mom. She was more of parent to him than Bruce ever was and she is the one who Jason can never stop seeing her as one.

Fair enough, I don't quite get what you mean by the meta level but I do still think Bruce's influence is significant to the course that Jason's life eventually went on. Flashpoint implies a much different future even if it's not one I found realistic that's centered around where he would have went without meeting Bruce. It's implied that some part of Bruce's decision to take Jason in is also a desire to see Jason turned away from a life of crime but making Jason Robin and putting him back in situations dealing with crime are events I would argue encouraged Jason to stick to his morals and eventually turn away from Bruce. Not that he affected Jason's morals but he had a pretty big say in what direction Jason was going with a future in crimefighting.

edit: nevermind the above I clicked post before the page updated. I'm talking meta.

Catherine I have no arguments for, I just think she is also just as much a significant figure in his life and that doesn't need to mean Bruce isn't (wether or not he was a positive significant figure can still be debated). Regarding how better they were for Jason as parents though, if Tomasi's Bruce was never (implicitly) retconned I'd fully agree and say not just Jason but most of Bruce's kids need to cut off that kind of person for their own health. Bruce already walks a line with mourning but the physical/mental beating he put his kids through in that tantrum was pretty hard to read. Rebirth Bruce is a little all over the place but if he ever returned to that it would near mirror an abuse cycle.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Physically? Jason lived with Bruce when he was 12 and died at 14-15. How the heck this even compared in any way to how Catherine raised him from diapers?

Morally? Jason has a sense of right and wrong before he meet Bruce and it clear that he does at their first meeting and the streets has a bigger influence in his gray morals.

In meta way? Of course he did since he is the reason why he become a vigilante and living the way he is today.

Catherine was either a drug addict or suffering from a long, weakening disease that wasn't able to properly provide Jason with the care he needed growing up. And despite this, is a constant presence on Jason's thoughts. Something that I might add, is Lobdell's work since Catherine was a foot note of Jason before the N52.

Bruce could've lived little time with Jason but he left a very deep mark on him. Not only he made sure Jason didn't lacked anything, it helped him to focus his energies and his skills by giving him a purpose. Bruce was also the role model and father figure Jason was sorely lacking. Is odd you feel we are misinterpreting your words when you are making very clear you don't think much of Bruce and Jason's relationship despite being the cornerstone of Jason's entire character.

And for the record, time is a minor factor for people to develop strong attachments with each other in real life.