Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Rise]

A foot note? In the one year Jason was Robin in post crisis before they killed him, it was made clear that Jason was pretty fond of her and that she was good to him. She only got sick/or addicated shortly before she died, not when Jason was pretty small. Post-Red Hood and pre-52, things were completely messed up (heck, you have Morrison who had Bruce forcing Jason to dye his hair and telling him straight to his face that he isn't his father and Winick who had Bruce throwing a batrang at his freaking throat).

Lobdell was actually the one who showed Jason's parents in pretty negative light in the 0 issue and n52 series in general. He made Catherine a junike since Jason was a really small child and Willis an abusive father despite the fact that he wasn't originally in pre-52 and was simply a guy who got involved with bad guys after losing his job. Jason didn't even really hate him since he got really angry and brust out crying when he find out that Harvey killed his father.

And seriously, are my posts completely confusing that you keep calling me up in things I didn't even say or imply? I'm honestly getting tired of repeating myself so I'm not going to address the second part of your post.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Neither Catherine nor Willis were mentioned during UTRH, Lost Days, Revenge of the Red Hood, Streets Run Red, Countdown or any other storyline where Jason showed up after his resurrection. If you truly believe that then you failed to read between lines, UtRH and most of Jason's more outrageous actions on the Pre Flashpoint universe are those of a child throwing a tantrum because Dad brought a new baby home. He could try to justify himself as trying to do what Bruce can't do, but the truth of the matter is that it was all about him giving Bruce the middle finger. If her would've been committed to the eradication of crime as he said, he wouldn't staged the whole thing with the Joker and he would've killed him on the spot.

Lobdell changed things, yeah, but he also made them both a constant presence in Jason's life. Someone that Jason grew to love and care for them until the end (Catherine more than Willis obviously). And then, when Jason was alone and hurting, Bruce came into his life filling the void left by Catherine.

[magpieM]

After reading all of your posts, guys, I think the best way to observe what's going on in Jason's mind is to focus on upcoming stories in RHATO itself.

I do feel that the basic tone of Jason in recent Rebirth issues is kind of too 'emotional' (or 'weak'). But I also began to have a feeling that Lobdell did it all on purpose. Long ago he used Black Mask to blur out that Jason was 'elevating himself in Batman's eyes', looking for 'father's love'. It's funny that even a villain and outsider had already found that there was something wrong with this famous Red Hood.

So I think that Jason's recent era of 'weakness' and blind trust is a preparation for future fall out between him and Bizarro, and potentially, the drama of Willis vs Bruce. I think all the clues, the mysterious guy and Willis letter, are all pointing at those big events. I'll wait and see how things finally break out before evaluating Jason's current mental status or Lobdells writing.

And speaking of Catherine, I'm very curious about the words in the letter "Miss her more than......" Was Willis talking about Catherine, or Sheila? It's good to know that in the future, a lot of family history will be revealed to torture Jason's feeling.

[Rise]

Neither Catherine nor Willis were mentioned during UTRH, Lost Days, Revenge of the Red Hood, Streets Run Red, Countdown or any other storyline where Jason showed up after his resurrection. If you truly believe that then you failed to read between lines, UtRH and most of Jason's more outrageous actions on the Pre Flashpoint universe are those of a child throwing a tantrum because Dad brought a new baby home. He could try to justify himself as trying to do what Bruce can't do, but the truth of the matter is that it was all about him giving Bruce the middle finger. If her would've been committed to the eradication of crime as he said, he wouldn't staged the whole thing with the Joker and he would've killed him on the spot.

Lobdell changed things, yeah, but he also made them both a constant presence in Jason's life. Someone that Jason grew to love and care for them until the end (Catherine more than Willis obviously). And then, when Jason was alone and hurting, Bruce came into his life filling the void left by Catherine.

My God, I literally facepalmed.

When the heck did I say Willis and Catherine were mentioned in Post-Red Hood and pre-52? I just said that things were completely messed up during that period that I even give example with how they turned Bruce into a jerk with Jason. They have completely ignored his past and didn't even now which direction in to take him so it's not surprise that Catherine wasn't mentioned.

He made unnessary changes. There was absolutely no reason to make Willis such a horrible person while you could have kept things the way it has been. In secret origins, Lobdell had Bruce using Jason to fix himself and not actually trying to help him so he didn't portray Bruce in good light either.

[magpieM]

Looking at iconic series like LupinIII and the Green Hornet I think what Loedbell might be missing is the ol Law enforcer rival type. A well written and cool character from a major agency (real or otherwise) who targets Red Hood for a number of Hits and by the course of the series becomes a sort of rival who is never really sure where Jason`s aliance lies.

This is a really good idea! Jason's own version of 'Gordon' who is actually a rival?

I suddenly recall the encounters between Yuri Orlov and Jack Valentine in 'Lord of War'

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

My God, I literally facepalmed.

When the heck did I say Willis and Catherine were mentioned in Post-Red Hood and pre-52? I just said that things were completely messed up during that period that I even give example with how they turned Bruce into a jerk with Jason. They have completely ignored his past and didn't even now which direction in to take him so it's not surprise that Catherine wasn't mentioned.

I was elaborating why they were a foot note on Jason's story. Regardless how they characters were written before, they simply were irrelevant for Jason's character. Bruce being a jerk or not comes down the the writer in turn and they were ignored because as I've said before, the core of Jason's character is his relationship with Bruce.

He made unnessary changes. There was absolutely no reason to make Willis such a horrible person while you could have kept things the way it has been. In secret origins, Lobdell had Bruce using Jason to fix himself and not actually trying to help him so he didn't portray Bruce in good light either.

Why kept thing the same? Lobdell has always been about doing new things and Willis didn't have much of a character before either so turning him into a deadbeat dad is a perfectly reasonable choice to make. Showing Bruce as being equally flawed as Jason was precisely the point. And hey, is much better than making him suicidal.

[SpentShrimp]

I'm hoping they eventually give Christopher Priest a shot at writing Jason.

[Rise]

Why kept thing the same? Lobdell has always been about doing new things and Willis didn't have much of a character before either so turning him into a deadbeat dad is a perfectly reasonable choice to make. Showing Bruce as being equally flawed as Jason was precisely the point. And hey, is much better than making him suicidal.

What King did was awful which why I hate cheap drama that some writers obsessed with and don't approve with the changes Lobdell made.

Also, I'm just going to leave this here:

[G-Potion]

Also, I'm just going to leave this here:

The way I read this scene is not how Jason doesn't see Bruce as his father anymore but rather how he thinks because of what he did in the past was too severe for Bruce to love him the way he did when Jason was Robin. It's a turnaround from hating Bruce for disappointing him to thinking he doesn't deserve love for disappointing Bruce. But the want is still there. It's in the way he says the line. It's in the way Black Mask commented on Jason. And I think Lobdell has said somewhere that the relationship is a work-in-progress. It will be on and off, but they are getting there.

[G-Potion]

After reading all of your posts, guys, I think the best way to observe what's going on in Jason's mind is to focus on upcoming stories in RHATO itself.

I do feel that the basic tone of Jason in recent Rebirth issues is kind of too 'emotional' (or 'weak'). But I also began to have a feeling that Lobdell did it all on purpose. Long ago he used Black Mask to blur out that Jason was 'elevating himself in Batman's eyes', looking for 'father's love'. It's funny that even a villain and outsider had already found that there was something wrong with this famous Red Hood.

So I think that Jason's recent era of 'weakness' and blind trust is a preparation for future fall out between him and Bizarro, and potentially, the drama of Willis vs Bruce. I think all the clues, the mysterious guy and Willis letter, are all pointing at those big events. I'll wait and see how things finally break out before evaluating Jason's current mental status or Lobdells writing.

Good thinking. We're seeing this issue by issue, but Lobdell no doubt has a bigger picture in mind.

[kiwiliko]

The way I read this scene is not how Jason doesn't see Bruce as his father anymore but rather how he thinks because of what he did in the past was too severe for Bruce to love him the way he did when Jason was Robin. It's a turnaround from hating Bruce for disappointing him to thinking he doesn't deserve love for disappointing Bruce. But the want is still there. It's in the way he says the line. It's in the way Black Mask commented on Jason. And I think Lobdell has said somewhere that the relationship is a work-in-progress. It will be on and off, but they are getting there.

Read it the same way too. There's nearly equal amounts canon content of Jason and Bruce tearing into each other as there are of the two of them expressing the desire to make amends, best way to probably put it is just it's complicated. Also had someone point out to me Jason doesn't exactly have the most objective view of where he stands with family and what he thinks Bruce feels about him as a son isn't always what Bruce is feeling.

[G-Potion]

I'm hoping they eventually give Christopher Priest a shot at writing Jason.

I wonder if he even likes the character.

[SpentShrimp]

I wonder if he even likes the character.

I bet he does. I think he would like the challenge of taking a complex character with a unique history and making a story with him.

[G-Potion]

Read it the same way too. There's nearly equal amounts canon content of Jason and Bruce tearing into each other as there are of the two of them expressing the desire to make amends, best way to probably put it is just it's complicated. Also had someone point out to me Jason doesn't exactly have the most objective view of where he stands with family and what he thinks Bruce feels about him as a son isn't always what Bruce is feeling.

Yes subjectivity and lack of self-worth have always been a Jason thing. He was dismissive of himself in that Justice League issue and Alfred has to correct him. Even with friends, he thinks he harms Roy more than helps him, and ends their relationship without giving Roy a say in the matter.

You could argue that Bruce hasn't done much to feel like they are equally conflicted, equally wanting. But with the numerous writings of Bruce, it's impossible to use other titles as references, but rather to judge it from how Lobdell himself is writing Bruce, as his Bruce would make the most sense for this push-and-pull thing between Jason and Bruce to feel genuine.

[kiwiliko]

Yes subjectivity and lack of self-worth have always been a Jason thing. He was dismissive of himself in that Justice League issue and Alfred has to correct him. Even with friends, he thinks he harms Roy more than helps him, and ends their relationship without giving Roy a say in the matter.

You could argue that Bruce hasn't done much to feel like they are equally conflicted, equally wanting. But with the numerous writings of Bruce, it's impossible to use other titles as references, but rather to judge it from how Lobdell himself is writing Bruce, as his Bruce would make the most sense for this push-and-pull thing between Jason and Bruce to feel genuine.

Not quite push pull but the sheer amount of times other titles like to pin up Bruce angsting in front of his display case show at least some form of longing even if that's exactly the kind of action that would drive Jason further away.