Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Zaresh]

The funny thing is that, if I remember correctly, he really wrote him as rather more sympathetic than Bruce in both the scripts he wrote for Under the Hood and its movie, even if he didn't intent to. I mean; it usually happens with well written anti-villains, but in this case, it's not even hard to understand or even sympathise with him on some of his points. I know this happens even with more renowned writers--Moore's Rorschach, even if not a villain himself, is not mean to be sympathetic at all, but even so, a lot of readers do sympathize with him.

But in this case, I would think it's easier to understand how; because, well, Bruce was honestly the coldest, distant, unfeeling person ever and seemed to not even try to understand how this come to happen and how psychotic Jason could feel so betrayed and forgotten, and put such awful plans and actions to work; the reasons behind. We are supposed to see the whole story more by Bruce's eyes, but we have more emotional feedback from Jason's POV, and that way it's way easier to take a part in the conflict, or at least, be more understanding for his part. Whereas for Bruce we get, what? Him feeling guilty and responsible for Jason's behaviour and death? And I may be misremembering because I have the movie fresher, but that thing about calling him a soldier is all sorts of messed up and one of the reasons I dislike modern Batman. Robins are kids, partners and even sons/brothers, or supposed to be. You really have to remember the kid who turned mad as a soldier? Really? Agh! I hate modern Batman. I think I would take TAS Batman, 80's Batman or even Tim Burton's Batman any day before what we ended with; who appears to be someone absurdly manipulative who seems to only feel and show ocasional rage or depression and seems to care for others in a very twisted and cold way, if he does care at all--like with Selina now, with Damian before and so on. One at a time!

/rant

[RedBird]

Well said. That's definitely the impression that he gave from his interviews. However, do you think his view changed a tiny bit by the last time he wrote Jason in the B&R issue where he rescued Scarlet? He's still a villain, but his focus was for once about protecting someone and not on his own issue.

Not sure, perhaps after a while even he felt a little miffed that people were taking the character in a lot of wild scenarios and developments. I mean, as I said he likes Jason at least as a villian, he shaped the character and his ideas behind Jasons personality and morals was always pretty solid even if he personally felt that they didn't make Jason a redeemable character but just an interesting one. He kinda laughs off Morrisons interpretation when asked about it but I never got the implication that he ever really liked it, and considering how starkly different he made Jasons approach to Scarlet in his own B&R, from basically a product of child grooming an abused girl to protecting a victim that Jason then intended to (as the ending of that arc implied) let go and have a free life, I think then it's easier to see that he didn't share Morrisons vision for the character as just a foil for Dick Grayson.

Now this point is admittedly one I'm not 100% on, but I seem to recall some rumors that he even had tried to throw around a few ideas to get rid of the whole 'red head' retcon that Morrison did, thereby getting rid of Morrisons Jason entirely. I think it had something to do with implying that the REAL Jason was still lost in another world when Countdown was going on and a FAKE one took his place the last few years. That sure would have saved us from a lot of crappy interpretations of his character like Morrisons B&R and BFTC. I think due to time constraints that story wasn't possible and Winick just had to make do. If there's anyone that can attest to that story please let me know.

[The Dying Detective]

It was pretty much what everyone accused N52 RHATO to be: violent, edgy, grim.

But they didn't go with how fortunate and odd considering the New 52's generally grim tone.

[RedBird]

But in this case, I would think it's easier to understand how; because, well, Bruce was honestly the coldest, distant, unfeeling person ever and seemed to not even try to understand how this come to happen and how psychotic Jason could feel so betrayed and forgotten, and put such awful plans and actions to work; the reasons behind. We are supposed to see the whole story more by Bruce's eyes, but we have more emotional feedback from Jason's POV, and that way it's way easier to take a part in the conflict, or at least, be more understanding for his part. Whereas for Bruce we get, what? Him feeling guilty and responsible for Jason's behaviour and death? And I may be misremembering because I have the movie fresher, but that thing about calling him a soldier is all sorts of messed up and one of the reasons I dislike modern Batman.

/rant

I think DC writers and editors at the time and even now, bank too much on the audience siding with Bruce by default, so much so that their regression and negative character development for him is now so ingrained and has become problematic when telling a story that requires Bruce to be sympathetic, compassionate and humane. I mean, UTRH is a greek tragedy between a father and son, the driving force behind the story should be in the emotional punches. The fact that both characters feel a sense of loss, betrayal but ultimately love for one another. We get all that from Jason, but Bruce? The story there mainly focuses on his guilt and not something like, 'holy shit, the son that I mourned for is back, I have to help him no matter what'.

Even for as short as its emotional and story driven moments were, I think Arkham Knight displayed the slightly more human scenario that each character would face in this circumstance. In the final fight between the two, Bruce extends a hand, even when Jason threatens him with a gun. He doesn't falter like in the film or comic, he keeps his hand raised, a promise to help Jason no matter what. In the scene where Jason confronts Babs, like how most of Jasons confrontations with the family pre52 have gone, she is appalled by his actions BUT unlike those comic counterparts, it seems she actually wants to understand and even pleads with him to stop and just come home. The implication that he would be welcomed back and that he was missed in the first place by everyone. Like yeah, that sounds more like how people treat a 'sick' and lost family wouldn't you say? Pleading for intervention but also showing support.

I don't recall Bruce ever describing Jason as 'a failure', or implying he got what was coming to him, he even seems still shaken by the event still, if his hallucinations and accidental (and apparently common) slip up of calling Tim, 'Jason' are to mean anything. Hell towards the very end, when Bruce is being taken to scarecrow, Alfred messages him stating that he is being followed by a third party, to which Bruce states something along the lines of 'I knew he would come'. We find out later that that third party was in fact Jason by way of him saving Bruce and also if you notice, spray painting a red bat on the outside of scarecrows building before Bruce enters. Again, there's the implication of Bruces love for Jason, the fact that he still had faith in the boy till the bitter end. That love and faith which is then returned when Jason stops his plans and saves Bruce.

Whew, sorry I didn't mean to turn that into a AK vs DC rant, AK isn't perfect but it does show what you could have achieved in such a emotionally driven story line when you don't have a messy editorial, cheaps stunts, or an insistent need to make your titular character cruel through traumatic events to keep your story down. As much as I enjoy UTRH, DC really dropped the ball on that one, in the case of long term development.

[EMarie]

Winick had some great writing but he had a limited view of Jason. He didn't seem to get the whole picture of who Jason was before he died. I remember his last arc was awful. It felt like Winick was playing off what he thought made Jason popular but didn't understand why he was. They go to his old school: Jason remarks how much he hated it. Except he loved school before his death.

Jason has sex appeal? Have him get naked TWICE in the same arc and confidently deal with people while naked. Instead of giving him a towel give him what's basically a wash cloth to cover up with for one scene. For some reason have Dick talk about something being off with Jason when he's Robin. Bruce makes sure Jason stays in Arkham with his murderer for his "protection"?

[G-Potion]

Now this point is admittedly one I'm not 100% on, but I seem to recall some rumors that he even had tried to throw around a few ideas to get rid of the whole 'red head' retcon that Morrison did, thereby getting rid of Morrisons Jason entirely. I think it had something to do with implying that the REAL Jason was still lost in another world when Countdown was going on and a FAKE one took his place the last few years. That sure would have saved us from a lot of crappy interpretations of his character like Morrisons B&R and BFTC. I think due to time constraints that story wasn't possible and Winick just had to make do. If there's anyone that can attest to that story please let me know.

Wow... what could have been. But, I have no regret that the reboot happened instead of this. Despite the reception N52 RHATO got, it built a solid foundation to develop Jason to this point. In a lot of ways, Jason was one of the characters that got the most out of those years.

[G-Potion]

I think DC writers and editors at the time and even now, bank too much on the audience siding with Bruce by default, so much so that their regression and negative character development for him is now so ingrained and has become problematic when telling a story that requires Bruce to be sympathetic, compassionate and humane. I mean, UTRD is a greek tragedy with a between a father and son, the driving force behind the story should be in the emotional punches. The fact that both characters feel a sense of loss, betrayal but ultimately love for one another. We get all that from Jason, but Bruce? The story there mainly focuses on his guilt and not something like, 'holy shit, the son that I mourned for is back, I have to help him no matter what'.

AK really did better in that regard. If there's an adaptation of UTRH on the big screen someday, I hope they manage to balance this aspect.

[G-Potion]

Winick had some great writing but he had a limited view of Jason. He didn't seem to get the whole picture of who Jason was before he died. I remember his last arc was awful. It felt like Winick was playing off what he thought made Jason popular but didn't understand why he was. They go to his old school: Jason remarks how much he hated it. Except he loved school before his death.

Jason has sex appeal? Have him get naked TWICE in the same arc and confidently deal with people while naked. Instead of giving him a towel give him what's basically a wash cloth to cover up with for one scene. For some reason have Dick talk about something being off with Jason when he's Robin. Bruce makes sure Jason stays in Arkham with his murderer for his "protection"?

I can't believe Bruce. In a way, he just came back to life himself, and he couldn't speak more than a few words to Jason. Also looking stone cold the whole way through that conversation. I feel robbed that we didn't see how he managed to talk Jason into being Wingman.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Winick had some great writing but he had a limited view of Jason. He didn't seem to get the whole picture of who Jason was before he died. I remember his last arc was awful. It felt like Winick was playing off what he thought made Jason popular but didn't understand why he was. They go to his old school: Jason remarks how much he hated it. Except he loved school before his death.

Jason has sex appeal? Have him get naked TWICE in the same arc and confidently deal with people while naked. Instead of giving him a towel give him what's basically a wash cloth to cover up with for one scene. For some reason have Dick talk about something being off with Jason when he's Robin. Bruce makes sure Jason stays in Arkham with his murderer for his "protection"?

Pretty much this.

Winnick was sincerely baffled at Jason's popularity and during his last stories with him he approached from the "Villains are cool, right?" angle.

The amusing thing is that if it weren't by Winnick, we wouldn't have Lobdell on RHATO. See, Lobdell was at DC's offices sorting some things about his books (TT and Superboy) when he was shown Winnick's pitch for RHATO and he did a double take at what Winnick was proposing. He came on the spot with the "Butch and Sundance" comparison along the first scene on the series (Jason freeing Roy from Prison) before finishing his business and leaving. Come Monday and he gets a call from DC telling him he will be writing RHATO.

[G-Potion]

The amusing thing is that if it weren't by Winnick, we wouldn't have Lobdell on RHATO. See, Lobdell was at DC's offices sorting some things about his books (TT and Superboy) when he was shown Winnick's pitch for RHATO and he did a double take at what Winnick was proposing. He came on the spot with the "Butch and Sundance" comparison along the first scene on the series (Jason freeing Roy from Prison) before finishing his business and leaving. Come Monday and he gets a call from DC telling him he will be writing RHATO.

The also amusing thing is for some people Lobdell was the worst thing to happen to Jason. Certainly Rebirth has quieted those voices down a bit.

[Zaresh]

@RedBird, yep, those games did a good work balancing the emotional approach, impact and potential. But it is one of the strong points of the Arkham games, I think; their psychological approach on the characters. Which is funy, because those games tend to be even more dark and gritty than the current DCU Batman, I think.

[RedBird]

@RedBird, yep, those games did a good work balancing the emotional approach, impact and potential. But it is one of the strong points of the Arkham games, I think; their psychological approach on the characters. Which is funy, because those games tend to be even more dark and gritty than the current DCU Batman, I think.

I agree, and that's just the thing, the games and the old BTAS are dark and gritty mainly because of the world that Batman exists in and the themes that are tackled within them. The world and the people around Batman/Bruce are dark, violent, dangerous and tend to encase a lot of psychological issues as well as more adult/taboo themes. Plus they (the writers tackling these themes) often do so with the knowledge that what they are displaying and handling IS dark and heavy, its not just to appear 'edgy'. (eg: AK torture scenes - child torture)

At times during dcu comics, that sense of self awareness of either the narratives weighty themes or of Bruce Wayne himself is warped by the need to be 'shocking', to justify Bruce becoming a more imposing threat to his villains, or even to display Bruce as being as big of a monster as the villains he fights. But often in the effort to do so, these interpretations contain little or none of the self awareness Bruce Wayne has of himself as Batman, and also loses the sense of humility he has and the altruistic reasons for what he does, as well as his compassion for others and willingness to show it.

Outside of a few stumbling moments in his development, (bumps in the road) and as the AA games, BTAS and some comics have shown, (main canon) Bruce should remain a beacon, or rather a force that never allows himself to be consumed by that darkness. A man who doesn't lose his humanity no matter what life throws at him. THATS Bruce. I can understand Bruce closing himself off in some ways due to fear, as was shown in AK and even after situations like Jasons death in the comics, that's logical to his character, that displays a vulnerability and makes him human. But I can't understand the bad dcu's interpretation which basically uses the horrible situations around Bruce as an excuse to not only wear Bruces humanity and compassion down, but make him as ugly, robotic, cold and uncaring as the world around him.

[Zaresh]

Damn, @RedBird! You stole my thoughts and put them in order with clear words.

I liked TAS and Beyond Bruce a lot; he was balanced. He was calm and silent and serious, and still had a bit of a temper and was cunning and proud. But he also was caring, and was compassionate and had a sense of humour that wasn't cruel (most of the time). He was a hero I wouldn't mind to come across with (if comics were real, heh). That take on Batman wasn't my introduction to it (I loved the Burton movies when I was like 7 or so, and I still like them, true being told), but it definitely was the version I loved the most and how I understand some of the characters. Because I live in a medium-small town and publishing history for DC in my country was a bit of a mess (apparently), I didn't get to read their comics (barring Vertigo) until way after the 90's had ended. And then, when I went to read current comics, found how much I disliked Batman himself most of the time: what a let down. I also read older stuff, and liked it more, so... (this is how I ended up reading Waid's Flash, which also has become one of my favourite reads. Internet and libraries are such great inventions--said the librarian).

Also, TAS and Beyond had great art style and music; it's a winner all the way for me.

[EMarie]

Pretty much this.

Winnick was sincerely baffled at Jason's popularity and during his last stories with him he approached from the "Villains are cool, right?" angle.

The amusing thing is that if it weren't by Winnick, we wouldn't have Lobdell on RHATO. See, Lobdell was at DC's offices sorting some things about his books (TT and Superboy) when he was shown Winnick's pitch for RHATO and he did a double take at what Winnick was proposing. He came on the spot with the "Butch and Sundance" comparison along the first scene on the series (Jason freeing Roy from Prison) before finishing his business and leaving. Come Monday and he gets a call from DC telling him he will be writing RHATO.

He really was baffled. It didn't seem to occur to him or DC that people liked Jason's humanity. It's pretty clear in his interviews that he just saw Jason as a villain.

Thanks for the information, that's a great story that makes me glad he pitched his own idea. I actually get the feeling Lobdell not only gets Jason's layers but also cares about the character.

The also amusing thing is for some people Lobdell was the worst thing to happen to Jason. Certainly Rebirth has quieted those voices down a bit.

I never got why people thought this. Say what you want about the first series but Jason's development was great. Lobdell has gone into things with the character no one ever has. New 52 was notorious for editorial problems Lobdell only mentioned one so far. At least that I'm aware of. He said how they wanted him to wrap up the Untitled plot instead of letting them be an ongoing threat. Which explains why the Crux plot he previously mentioned was suddenly dropped in the arc and Essence pops up to be revealed as the murderer.

He also said they tried to end the plot with Tynion which explains some of the lackluster wrap up for them but also makes Jason look like a bad detective in the process.

[G-Potion]

I never got why people thought this. Say what you want about the first series but Jason's development was great. Lobdell has gone into things with the character no one ever has. New 52 was notorious for editorial problems Lobdell only mentioned one so far. At least that I'm aware of. He said how they wanted him to wrap up the Untitled plot instead of letting them be an ongoing threat. Which explains why the Crux plot he previously mentioned was suddenly dropped in the arc and Essence pops up to be revealed as the murderer.

He also said they tried to end the plot with Tynion which explains some of the lackluster wrap up for them but also makes Jason look like a bad detective in the process.

Still salty about Essence and the Untitled. Was the best thing given to expand Jason's backstory, and there was still much story-telling potential.

Which is why I'm glad that Lobdell's allowed to play the long term game and juggle different plot threads now. Sure it makes some arcs a bit too long, but I think about the solicit for #23 and I have a feeling that it's gonna be very gratifying too see all the seeds he's sown come to fruition.