Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[JasonTodd428]

I didn't say you are going to spend your free time worrying about it, I just hoped that not every single time we talk about the new arc you start worrying about how the other writers will handle it.

If I misread what you said then no harm done but it did seem to me you were implying just that. It even seems so in this quote where you say you just didn't want me to keep brining it up in future posts thereby assuming I would continue to do so.

I honestly don't get why you are so worried that other writers will use it as chance to write him as villain. But like I said before, I don't want to get into another discussion about the writers who only wrote him for few pages and has no affect on him.

Because I care about the character and want to see him being used well in appearances outside his own book. I would have thought that was obvious.

[byrd156]

Thats ironic how? Being at odds with Bruce due to warring ideologies is somehow 2-dimensional?

[Rise]

The fact you think pre-flashpoint Jason who is only purpose in life is obsessing over the batfamily and being fodder for them is "wonderful" while declaring you won't accept for characters to be 2-dimensional is quite ironic.

[JasonTodd428]

Thats ironic how? Being at odds with Bruce due to warring ideologies is somehow 2-dimensional?

That's not the part that's one dimensional nor is the idea itself so. It's how writers handled it and Jason that oftentimes has been. Pre-FP it became stale because all writer did with the idea was make Jason into a crazed lunatic with Daddy issues who did things merely to get a rise out of the Bats. There was no nuance to it and very little of any direction either. On top of that writer after writer kept harping on the same exact point until they were basically beating a dead horse. There are more interesting ways to show that the two have warring ideologies that don't involve Jason needing to be a crazy lunatic or needing to physically confront anyone in the family.

[byrd156]

The fact you think pre-flashpoint Jason who is only purpose in life is obsessing over the batfamily and being fodder for them is "wonderful" while declaring you won't accept for characters to be 2-dimensional is quite ironic.

I never said he would be obsessing over the bat-family. Where did I say that? If you read my post you would understand my point.

Some people dislike the costume and that's fine but I loved it, that Jason was smart and felt like he was strong in his convictions and characterization. He wanted to take Batman's teachings and twist them into his own dark version of justice. Even taking on his own "Robin" with Scarlet. He is still considered an anti-hero who kills bad guys while being at odds with Batman.

But as you said a Jason whose only purpose is to obsess over Bruce and and the family is exactly my point.

My point is that Jason should be at odds with Bruce and the family because of his own beliefs conflicting with everyone else's like the Pre-flashpoint version. He should be brutal to criminals and Bruce would want to go after him when they are close in proximity.

[byrd156]

That's not the part that's one dimensional nor is the idea itself so. It's how writers handled it and Jason that oftentimes has been. Pre-FP it became stale because all writer did with the idea was make Jason into a crazed lunatic with Daddy issues who did things merely to get a rise out of the Bats. There was no nuance to it and very little of any direction either. On top of that writer after writer kept harping on the same exact point until they were basically beating a dead horse. There are more interesting ways to show that the two have warring ideologies that don't involve Jason needing to be a crazy lunatic or needing to physically confront anyone in the family.

That's bad writers, you said so yourself that it's not one-dimensional. I want Jason to work, I don't like to hate characters in comics. I hate very few but sadly the New 52 characterization of Jason is one of them. I think the right writing team can make anything work and its not like this idea is super difficult to pull off.

Hell Ollie pre-52 would argue and debate literally anyone he could get his hands on when it came to beliefs. You have arguments like that between Jason and Bruce with awesome spectacle fight scenes and it can make for some really great character work for the both of them.

[Rise]

Where did I say that?

When you declared your love for Morrison's version where Jason has no goals or hopes of his own except obsessing over what they are doing. His version wasn't dangerous and wasn't even a character, he was used as meta and fodder for Batman and Robin.

Having Batman refusing any connection with Jason just because he has different belief than him just show how small minded and hypocrite he is. They can disgree in their methods, but he has no right to judge when the entire family done their fair share of shady stuff and he himself alomst brought up the end of the world couple of times because of his actions.

[byrd156]

When you declared your love for Morrison's version where Jason has no goals or hopes of his own except obsessing over what they are doing. His version wasn't dangerous and wasn't even a character, he was used as meta and fodder for Batman and Robin.

Having Batman refusing any connection with Jason just because he has different belief than him just show how small minded and hypocrite he is. They can disgree in their methods, but he has no right to judge when the entire family done their fair share of shady stuff and he himself alomst brought up the end of the world couple of times because of his actions.

Batman is a hypocrite when he accepts Jason back into the family after killing so many people and if he continues to kill while being a part of the family.

When was the last time you read Morrison's run? Jason's goal was to disprove the "idea" that the batman's mission was all for nothing. That his methods don't work which is an argument that comic fans have all the time. How was he "fodder"? Did they just beat him up in 5 seconds?

Talking about my love for a certain version of a character doesn't negate my other points in the post. Jason right now in the comics is moving closer to a version of that. he is now back on the outside when it comes to Bruce which is where I think Jason should be.

[JasonTodd428]

That's bad writers, you said so yourself that it's not one-dimensional. I want Jason to work, I don't like to hate characters in comics. I hate very few but sadly the New 52 characterization of Jason is one of them. I think the right writing team can make anything work and its not like this idea is super difficult to pull off.

Hell Ollie pre-52 would argue and debate literally anyone he could get his hands on when it came to beliefs. You have arguments like that between Jason and Bruce with awesome spectacle fight scenes and it can make for some really great character work for the both of them.

I agree that the right writing team could pull this off with a bit of deftness and nuance and that it would make for some great character work as well as growth for the two of them especially if those imagined writers were to have that lead to a consensus between them down the road.The thing is I really don't want that to be the sole purpose of the book not do I want to see a literal clash between the two of them every issue either mainly because of the aforementioned time when that idea was handled very poorly. I'd prefer a more balanced approach to the concept were they do have their actual clashes but then there are issues that maybe deal with those differing ideologies in a more figurative sense without the need for a face to face confrontation. I think that too could lead to some great character work and development for Jason in particular. That's just my two cents worth.

Edit: Regarding your other post I find that to accept Damian into the fold after he's also killed so many more than Jason in all likelihood while he was with the League and he has also killed after making a promise to abide by the Bat's rules while not also accepting Jason into it is likewise hypocritical.

[Rise]

Batman is a hypocrite when he accepts Jason back into the family after killing so many people and if he continues to kill while being a part of the family.

When was the last time you read Morrison's run? Jason's goal was to disprove the "idea" that the batman's mission was all for nothing. That his methods don't work which is an argument that comic fans have all the time. How was he "fodder"? Did they just beat him up in 5 seconds?

Talking about my love for a certain version of a character doesn't negate my other points in the post. Jason right now in the comics is moving closer to a version of that. he is now back on the outside when it comes to Bruce which is where I think Jason should be.

Jason's role in Morrison is being an evil sociopath who even hurt and killed innocent people and then got taken down easily by Batman. He achieved nothing except following Batman and Robin and then get saved by them. How "dangerous".

It does negate your points about how you want "tragic anti hero", but love Morrison evil verion of him and how you hate for characters to be "2-dimensional" who his version was even less than that. I guess it's ok when it's Jason.

Nightwing crossing the line once, Damian killing someone even after being part of the family and Bruce beating people half to death is all ok. Batman daring to accept Jason even after the many times he helped them out and saved countless innocent lives is completely unacceptable.

[JasonTodd428]

Jason's role in Morrison is being an evil sociopath who even hurt and killed innocent people and then got taken down easily by Batman. He achieved nothing except following Batman and Robin and then get saved by them. How "dangerous".

It does negate your points about how you want "tragic anti hero", but love Morrison evil verion of him and how you hate for characters to be "2-dimensional" who his version was even less than that. I guess it's ok when it's Jason.

Nightwing crossing the line once, Damian killing someone even after being part of the family and Bruce beating people half to death is all ok. Batman daring to accepting Jason even after the many times he helped them out and saved countless innocent lives is completely unacceptable.

I never could think of Morrison's Jason as anything other then being OOC on the grounds that it's never been his thing to harm innocents while pursuing his war on crime or against the Bats. He may not believe in the same ideals as Batman for dealing with criminals but even so he is still trying to protect innocent people from these scumbags. It's a pretty well established part of his character at this point.

[byrd156]

Jason's role in Morrison is being an evil sociopath who even hurt and killed innocent people and then got taken down easily by Batman. He achieved nothing except following Batman and Robin and then get saved by them. How "dangerous".

It does negate your points about how you want "tragic anti hero", but love Morrison evil verion of him and how you hate for characters to be "2-demotional". I guess it's ok when it's Jason.

Nightwing crossing the line once, Damian killing someone even after being part of the family and Bruce beating people half to death is all ok. Batman daring to accepting Jason even after the many times he helped them out and saved countless innocent lives is completely unacceptable.

Dick "killing" the Joker doesn't count because he was resuscitated. The whole argument of he was "legally dead" is BS. His heart stopped, if a character dies in a story but is still alive at the end of it it doesn't count. Dick beating someone to near death in a fit of rage is no where near the same thing as casually killing criminals, he immediately showed remorse for what he did and in the end he was fine.

Damian's situation is different, he never had Bruce's rules imposed on him growing up. He was trained to kill by the League, dealing with that indoctrination was a struggle and a very good one I feel. Being Bruce's own flesh and blood while doing the one thing he can't makes for good drama. The main difference between Jason and Damian is that Damian has stopped. It's going to still be hypocritical but then again I'm not the writer. They are focusing on making Damian moving away from that and he has, Jason hasn't.

Jason being a bit of a sociopath comes with the territory of murdering a lot of criminals. It may not be something fans of him don't want to think about but he has to be some level of crazy. Just like anyone who decides to be a hero but a lot more so due to the bodycount. Yeah I just re-read Jason's appearance in Morrison's run and he never killed innocent people. His whole story was basically being a twisted version of Batman (like I said) rebranding the war on crime literally and figuratively. Jason wants to be the perfect son but can't, the trauma from being killed has changed him beyond repair. Fighting crime his way is a him trying in his own sick way to be better for Bruce. He is still the tragic anti-hero, killing is still evil. Anti-heroes do evil things for good reasons.

[byrd156]

I never could think of Morrison's Jason as anything other then being OOC on the grounds that it's never been his thing to harm innocents while pursuing his war on crime or against the Bats. He may not believe in the same ideals as Batman for dealing with criminals but even so he is still trying to protect innocent people from these scumbags. It's a pretty well established part of his character at this point.

He didn't harm innocents, he was trying to get Gotham on his side by posting the kills and what not. Scarlet was a dick to one innocent guy who's bird got zapped by a villain.

[Rise]

Yeah, the two security guards he killed in issue 3 were totally not "innocent".

Anti-heroes are willing to do what heroes refuse to do, but never cross the line by killing innocent people. You don't want him as an "anti-hero", you want him as a villain which you have admitted many times (just the other you were talking about how you want DCU to be be just simply good vs bad and how you dislike grey area) so let's not pretend otherwise by redefining the meaning of anti hero to fit your argument.

And I'm not going to bother with "It's doesn't count!!" points.

[KC93]

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