Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Godlike13]

Morrison's Red Hood was a logical evolution of Winick's Red Hood. He wasn't fodder for Batman and Robin, he was competition. He objective wasn't a personal vendetta. He was trying to compete against the new Batman for Gotham. Trying to offer Gotham an alternative protector. Even the silly suit and sidekick was about branding. It was actually a rather clever take, that i think got lost under ugly art and red hair.

Personally i like that Jason is breaking bad again, but with out a true jumping on point for it and a new voice i feel its already lacking.

[okiedokiewo]

Damian's situation is different, he never had Bruce's rules imposed on him growing up. He was trained to kill by the League, dealing with that indoctrination was a struggle and a very good one I feel. Being Bruce's own flesh and blood while doing the one thing he can't makes for good drama. The main difference between Jason and Damian is that Damian has stopped. It's going to still be hypocritical but then again I'm not the writer. They are focusing on making Damian moving away from that and he has, Jason hasn't.

Damian has stopped? So you must not be reading what's going on with him lately, I take it.

[byrd156]

Yeah, the two security guards he killed in issue 3 were totally not "innocent".

Anti-heroes are willing to do what heroes refuse to do, but never cross the line by killing innocent people. You don't want him as an "anti-hero", you want him as a villain which you have admitted many times (just the other you were talking about how you want DCU to be be just simply good vs bad and how you dislike grey area) so let's not pretend otherwise by redefining the meaning of anti hero to fit your argument.

And I'm not going to bother with "It's doesn't count!!" points.

I'm not changing any definitions. And pretending? Characters like the Punisher and Ghost Rider have killed innocent people before on purpose and accident. It comes with the territory of being Judge, Jury, and Executioner.

I never said the DCU should just be good and bad. Are you talking about the Deathstroke thread?

[Rise]

Yeah, it was so "logical" of Winick's take that he had to do some damage control to fix what Morrison has done.

[byrd156]

Damian has stopped? So you must not be reading what's going on with him lately, I take it.

I haven't been reading Super Sons.

[Godlike13]

No one in the Batfamilty is ok with Damian killing. When he does it, its a point of contention.

[byrd156]

No one in the Batfamilty is ok with Damian killing. When he does it, its a point of contention.

Right, its not like people are saying good job. You can do it but not Jason.

[Godlike13]

Yeah, it was so "logical" of Winick's take that he had to do some damage control to fix what Morrison has done.

Ya, because people couldn't get past his ugly look.

[Rise]

Ya, because people could get past his ugly look.

Typical of you, reducing the argument to just "he wasn't hot that why you hate it!" despite not even once I mentioned his look.

[Rise]

I'm not changing any definitions. And pretending? Characters like the Punisher and Ghost Rider have killed innocent people before on purpose and accident. It comes with the territory of being Judge, Jury, and Executioner.

I never said the DCU should just be good and bad. Are you talking about the Deathstroke thread?

No, you just moving goalposts. First you declared with certainty that he never harmed a single innocent soul and now you say "well, others did it too!!". If they killed an innocent soul, they aren't anti heros in the story where they did it and Jason isn't them nor he should be.

[Godlike13]

Typical of you, reducing the argument to just "he wasn't hot that why you hate it!" despite not even once I mentioned his look.

Thats what Winick's "damage control" was. Fixing his look and making him look pretty and more sympathetic again.

[byrd156]

No, you just moving goalposts. First you declared with certainty that he never harmed a single innocent soul and now you say "well, others did it too!!". If they killed an innocent soul, they aren't anti heros in the story where they did it and Jason isn't them nor he should be.

I was wrong about the cops, I missed that detail and I am sorry.

To me like you have stated I think Jason works well as villain. Like the thread that recently happened with Deathstroke many people on the threads have different ideas about his morality and ambiguity. Is he a villain or anti-hero? I personally think the line between the two is very thin. I find Jason to be a heroic character that fell from grace and become a more villainous character who tries to do right which is what I think is an anti-hero. Someone who does bad for good reasons.

You brought up my post and said I only believe in black and white. Just a reminder from that post.

I never said they were black and white. Doctor Doom is one of the greatest villains of all time, he's sympathetic and you can empathize with him all the while he does good and evil things for his own reasons. That's an example of a complex character that fits with what I'm saying. My question isn't meant to be an absolute that there is only objective good and objective evil when it comes to villains. That's just stupid.

There will always be grey to superheroes. The idea of being a superhero is a grey area, acting outside of the law to apprehend and stop criminals is against the law.

[Rise]

Thats what Winick's "damage control" was. Fixing his look and making him look pretty and more sympathetic again.

Yeah, let's foucs on how he made him "pretty" because this what all about. I already have the conversation with you two years ago and I already know it's pointless to get in another argument with you. So, lets "agree to disagree".

[Arsenal]

Morrison's Red Hood was a logical evolution of Winick's Red Hood. He wasn't fodder for Batman and Robin, he was competition. He objective wasn't a personal vendetta. He was trying to compete against the new Batman for Gotham. Trying to offer Gotham an alternative protector. Even the silly suit and sidekick was about branding. It was actually a rather clever take, that i think got lost under ugly art and red hair.

Personally i like that Jason is breaking bad again, but with out a true jumping on point for it and a new voice i feel its already lacking.

Don’t you think it’s a bit early to say its already lacking when it hasn’t even started yet?

[G-Potion]

Not surprising. Certain people come in this thread and you can expect where it's going for a while. That is, nowhere.