The pesonality of 87-98 Superman, would it be accepted today?

[Blacksun]

Blacksun do you mean Timm as in Tim Drake? He does have tragedy in his life. His mother was killed by the Obeah Man and his father was crippled for a long time trapped in his own body. Stephany Brown? I'm not familiar with her.

Tim mother died after he became Robin, so there wasn't any tragedy to motivate him to become a hero. I didn't even knew about his mother, because Dixon made sure the character wasn't motivate for tragedy. stephanie Brown is spoiler, was batgirl and robin. she started as love interest for tim drake Robin

[Francisco]

Tim mother died after he became Robin, so there wasn't any tragedy to motivate him to become a hero. I didn't even knew about his mother, because Dixon made sure the character wasn't motivate for tragedy. stephanie Brown is spoiler, was batgirl and robin. she started as love interest for tim drake Robin

Before or after it doesn't matter the fact is that he has tragedy in his life.

[JBatmanFan05]

However, the continuity for Superman had gotten overbearingly convoluted the last decade up to Flashpoint, some major changes and simplification was needed. We can debate if it was a bit too far or not, but it was sorely needed.

I think we might need to discuss specific convoluted parts and the options that might have been used to fix them, but I'm definitely not against major retcons and simplification. I'm a big believer in using an issue or arc or so to recap past events and majorly retcon or simplify them if need be. Johns retconned and simplified Brainiac in that pre-FP Brainiac revamp (finally finding a way to square Byrne's with pre-COIE Brainiac).

[Blacksun]

Before or after it doesn't matter the fact is that he has tragedy in his life.

but it wasn't like Ben for spidey or parents dead for bruce, or barry's mom killed

Yeah, its not like he became a power-soaked monster unable to control himself and became a danger to everyone around him, forcing him to leave earth, or got crazy new powers and a new costume, or started totting weapons so big even Cable would be jealous while wearing an edgy, all-black suit during post-Crisis.

Oh wait, he did. And all of that happened within the first couple years of his return from the dead. What else you got? Because I can pretty much promise you, anything that has been done in the 52 that you feel is out of character, I can find you at least three examples of roughly the same thing happening before, and the odds are pretty decent that I can even put it squarely in post-Crisis.

Post crisis took a longer time, all I said happened in less than 4 years since the reboot that fixed Superman.

Actually, it really is. Go read something other than post-Crisis and find out what Superman really is. The point of the character is that his life is full of tragic events that would cripple any other person; but Superman remains strong and positive despite those events. He refuses to buckle under the pressure. He remains the eternal optimist, even though he's suffered more than nearly anyone else in the universe. Unlike Peter Parker or Bruce Wayne, Superman does not let the bad things in his life define him. That's what Superman is all about.

well that is not new 52 superman, he let a lot of bad things hit him and define his destiny. peter parker doesn't let tragedy define him or his choices.

[manofsteel1979]

I sort of agree, but I think that, at the time, Bryne did what the franchise needed. All the silly Silver-Age concepts like the Super-Pets were still in play, and even if the Bronze Age had toned down the over-the-top ridiculousness of Superman in the Silver Age, fans likely needed a more concrete showing of "we're being a little more serious now". I think the real problem began towards the end of the 90's, when Superman was starting to doubt himself more, starting to have mundane marriage problems, and writers began to write Clark as being extremely average, rather than as someone who was, while still an Everyman, above average. That was the era that saw the rise of Scorn and a bloated supporting cast that pushed Superman out of his own books, and worse, raised concerns and/or questions about Superman's methodology that the character could never adequately answer



It really was. When your character's origin is officially labeled multiple choice, you know you're in trouble.



That's largely how it was at first. Clark would fly down to Smallville to drop off money or help with the harvest or whatever, and largely the Kents were just another responsibility that he took care of. But people loved those quiet heart-to-heart moments between father and son, and eventually things swung around to Clark running home when things got tough and needing Pa's advice for every little thing, even things that any self-sustaining adult would consider second nature. That's when it became a problem.

I think those three quotes point out three of the things that compounded to kill the post crisis era. Bloating the supporting cast, making the origin...one of the most iconic and simple origins in comics a convoluted mess, and weakening his resolve all conspired to bury the character in a deeper mess than it had been even prior to COIE.
I do think that some sort of reboot or tweaking WAS needed in 1986...but a lot of the changes could have been done in story without throwing so much out. For instance, kara was already dead and Kandor was out in deep space far from earth, so the " too many kryptonians" thing pretty much was fixed. Luthor could have just had his history slightly tweeked due to the merging of universes, and the idea of Clark being less mild mannered could have come from his experiences in Crisis and seeing his Earth 2 self having a life with Lois, etc.

Its telling that the only elements of the 86 revamp to endure is Luthor and Lexcorp, and Clark being more assertive and less of a facade.

[Ascended]

Post crisis took a longer time, all I said happened in less than 4 years since the reboot that fixed Superman.

well that is not new 52 superman, he let a lot of bad things hit him and define his destiny. peter parker doesn't let tragedy define him or his choices.

You're totally right. Electric Superman took a total of six years to happen from the time of his death. But what's your point? That doesnt really mean a thing, the point still stands that everything you've taken issue with in the 52 has happened before, is deeply rooted in the character's history, and I can even still find examples within post-Crisis (which took such a deviant route with Superman it's arguably not even the same character).

As for your second line, Im really trying here but Im not coming up with any examples of Clark letting bad events completely control his life and shatter his sense of self. Wait, he did give up the costume in issue three, for about a page and a half. He did pull back and let people rebuild their lives without his help after Doomed.....of course he was still helping out and as soon as trouble started he was in costume again....but seriously, I cannot for the life of me think of an example that has any weight to it at all. Post-Crisis, an idiot thug would tell Superman that "some people dont want to be saved" and Clark would spiral into depression (she was a member of the Royal Flush Gang, of all things!). So help me out here and give me an example. Because at the moment it really just looks like your pulling at strawmen to support your dislike of the "Old is New Again" Superman we have now.

[Ascended]

I
Its telling that the only elements of the 86 revamp to endure is Luthor and Lexcorp, and Clark being more assertive and less of a facade.

Honestly, I think they should have kept certain elements of the supporting cast too; Bibbo, Turpin, Ron Troupe, Cat Grant (before Johns turned her into an easy-target cougar, such an insult), Henderson and Guardian and Cadmus.....not to mention the marriage.

But generally, I agree with you. The vast majority of post-Crisis was easy to throw away, and that's pretty tellling.

However, hindsight is 20/20. In twenty years, who knows what the DCU will look like, and what mistakes might be taken along the way? We may be here in a few decades complaining about how Superman (yet again) lost his way and became something less than he should be. Odds are we'll be saying that everything started going downhill when Pak left.

[Auguste Dupin]

You're totally right. Electric Superman took a total of six years to happen from the time of his death. But what's your point? That doesnt really mean a thing, the point still stands that everything you've taken issue with in the 52 has happened before, is deeply rooted in the character's history, and I can even still find examples within post-Crisis (which took such a deviant route with Superman it's arguably not even the same character).

As for your second line, Im really trying here but Im not coming up with any examples of Clark letting bad events completely control his life and shatter his sense of self. Wait, he did give up the costume in issue three, for about a page and a half. He did pull back and let people rebuild their lives without his help after Doomed.....of course he was still helping out and as soon as trouble started he was in costume again....but seriously, I cannot for the life of me think of an example that has any weight to it at all. Post-Crisis, an idiot thug would tell Superman that "some people dont want to be saved" and Clark would spiral into depression (she was a member of the Royal Flush Gang, of all things!). So help me out here and give me an example. Because at the moment it really just looks like your pulling at strawmen to support your dislike of the "Old is New Again" Superman we have now.

Pretty much. Hell, even "alternate future Superman who gave up the fight" comes accross as less whinny in the New 52. In Kingdom Come, Superman stops his superheroics, hides himself in his Fortress, create an hologram of his own farm, doesn't interact with anyone in years, and completely abandons is human identity,basically living in a bubble. In Future's End, Superman stops his superheroics.....and decides to try to find a solution to world hunger in Somalia. Only speaking for myself here, but it seems to me that the latter one is much more heroic and much less defined by tragedy (if anything, Post Crisis Superman has a history of not taking tragedy well at all. What with him never experiencing it and all).

[Francisco]

but it wasn't like Ben for spidey or parents dead for bruce, or barry's mom killed

It wasn't like that but the Kents dying wasn't like that either. Doomed wasn't like that either. New 52 doesn't have that type of tragedy (Uncle Ben & Waynes) Clark hasn't been crippled or motivated by tragedy.

[Francisco]

Pretty much. Hell, even "alternate future Superman who gave up the fight" comes accross as less whinny in the New 52. In Kingdom Come, Superman stops his superheroics, hides himself in his Fortress, create an hologram of his own farm, doesn't interact with anyone in years, and completely abandons is human identity,basically living in a bubble. In Future's End, Superman stops his superheroics.....and decides to try to find a solution to world hunger in Somalia. Only speaking for myself here, but it seems to me that the latter one is much more heroic and much less defined by tragedy (if anything, Post Crisis Superman has a history of not taking tragedy well at all. What with him never experiencing it and all).

*SPOILERS FUTURE'S END*



Future's end Superman is awesome in comparison to Kingdom come Superman. He is no longer fighting bad guys with his fists but he keeps helping people by other means. As soon as there was something too big for the other heroes to handle by themselves he came back swinging.

[Prime]

Honestly, I think they should have kept certain elements of the supporting cast too; Bibbo, Turpin, Ron Troupe, Cat Grant (before Johns turned her into an easy-target cougar, such an insult), Henderson and Guardian and Cadmus.....not to mention the marriage.

But generally, I agree with you. The vast majority of post-Crisis was easy to throw away, and that's pretty tellling.

However, hindsight is 20/20. In twenty years, who knows what the DCU will look like, and what mistakes might be taken along the way? We may be here in a few decades complaining about how Superman (yet again) lost his way and became something less than he should be. Odds are we'll be saying that everything started going downhill when Pak left.

They probably will go downhill when Pak leaves. And it's coming, we all know it is. And that sucks...

[Sacred Knight]

Not sure I follow. Its seems like you're anticipating Pak leaving soon, but I'm not seeing any indication of that. If anything the fact he's still on post-Convergence is very positive.

[DochaDocha]

I think it's generally commentary on how nobody seems to stick to Superman titles for very long, which in itself is kind of depressing.

[manofsteel1979]

I think it's generally commentary on how nobody seems to stick to Superman titles for very long, which in itself is kind of depressing.

Yeah, the last creators to stay on Superman more than two years were Loeb and Kelly I think (they were on in various capacities for 4, nearly 5 years.) Now, granted, some of the creators before them were on the books for about 5 years too long, but it seems since the Loeb and kelly era ended most creators last two years max, and Pak is approaching that soon. I hope he stays for awhile, but knowing the track record, it can make one nervous. Of course, Pak seems to have no plans to leave, and judging from comments of the New Superman writer, it sounds like they (himself, Pak and Tomasi) have plans lined up a solid year, so all indications 2015 is still an ACTION Pak'd (see what I did there?) year. Afterward? Anyone's guess.

[BBally]

My only complaint about that Superman was that he was born on Earth due to the birthing matrix, which took away the whole ultimate immigrant angle (considering that Byrne is a very right-wing person), Krypton being a cold, depressing place and in my opinion the Clark Kent disguise was even less convincing than the Pre-Crisis version. And the whole Last Son of Krypton while an interesting idea, lasted longer than it should've have while adaptations like Lois and Clark and the TAS that followed Byrne's idea actually featured other Kryptonians (the Phantom Zone criminals)

People complain about the New52 Superman during Morrison's run to be brash and "not Superman" (which I think an invalid argument IMO), while Byrne/Wolvman's early PC Superman stories had him do stuff like leave a thug on top of a building or throw a beam through a car that had 2 thugs in it, which in my opinion made New52 Superman from Morrison's run look like a boyscout by comparison. Both were trying to pay tribute to the Golden Age Superman and to be honest while I do like Byrne's run, I prefer Morrison's version.