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  1. #46
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    http://www.leagle.com/decision/2001156155FSupp2d1_1156

    The above is the most comprehensive discussion of the 1993 agreement. Fox owns the movie rights for both live action and animated movies and has to approve any live action TV series. Marvel owns the animated TV rights.

    That's not to say that as with the legal dispute above, if Marvel launched an animated series that Fox for whatever reason thought infringed on their movie rights that Fox wouldn't take them to court so it's possible what Lane is talking about is it's complicated if they don't get official clearance from Fox on anything X-men related.

    If you read the above, a lot of the back and forth in the case (Mutant X live program) was Fox and Marvel not just referencing the 1993 agreement but various drafts of that agreement to argue intent. It also makes clear that at one point Fox did have the animation rights and those rights reverted to Marvel but that's not to say that if Fox really wanted those rights they couldn't produce some old draft of the 1993 agreement and argue the intent was for them to retain those rights and that somehow it got left out of the final agreement. In the world of high priced corporate law, the Final Agreement is not the end all be all.
    The big question for an animated series is who owns the toy rights? Lack of toy sales is what killed Young Justice on the DC side (largely driven by 2 factors from what I have read - the toys quality sucked, and were marketed at boys even though the show had huge popularity with girls - the marketers weren't willing to adapt) and if Fox gets the money from any X-Men toys then there is no incentive for Marvel to make an X-Men animated series even if they retain the rights to do so.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  2. #47
    Veteran Member Beezzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    http://www.leagle.com/decision/2001156155FSupp2d1_1156

    The above is the most comprehensive discussion of the 1993 agreement. Fox owns the movie rights for both live action and animated movies and has to approve any live action TV series. Marvel owns the animated TV rights.

    That's not to say that as with the legal dispute above, if Marvel launched an animated series that Fox for whatever reason thought infringed on their movie rights that Fox wouldn't take them to court so it's possible what Lane is talking about is it's complicated if they don't get official clearance from Fox on anything X-men related.

    If you read the above, a lot of the back and forth in the case (Mutant X live program) was Fox and Marvel not just referencing the 1993 agreement but various drafts of that agreement to argue intent. It also makes clear that at one point Fox did have the animation rights and those rights reverted to Marvel but that's not to say that if Fox really wanted those rights they couldn't produce some old draft of the 1993 agreement and argue the intent was for them to retain those rights and that somehow it got left out of the final agreement. In the world of high priced corporate law, the Final Agreement is not the end all be all.
    Thanks for finding this again - this was the version I was looking for.

    Hey, would it be possible for you to find the paragraph where it says Fox had the animation rights at one point and post it? My eyes are killing me today and I'm not up to digging through pages of legal jargon. i'd really appreciate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    The big question for an animated series is who owns the toy rights? Lack of toy sales is what killed Young Justice on the DC side (largely driven by 2 factors from what I have read - the toys quality sucked, and were marketed at boys even though the show had huge popularity with girls - the marketers weren't willing to adapt) and if Fox gets the money from any X-Men toys then there is no incentive for Marvel to make an X-Men animated series even if they retain the rights to do so.
    Marvel owns the toys rights to the cartoons. Fox can only get merch money from the live action portrayals of the characters (or to be more accurate based on likenesses of the characters as they appear in the films)...

    Which is why Fox will never see the cartoon rights again, Disney won't let go of a potential cash source even if they aren't using it.
    Last edited by Beezzi; 04-01-2015 at 05:21 AM.

  3. #48
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    Please give us an all women X-men tv series.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    http://www.leagle.com/decision/2001156155FSupp2d1_1156

    The above is the most comprehensive discussion of the 1993 agreement. Fox owns the movie rights for both live action and animated movies and has to approve any live action TV series. Marvel owns the animated TV rights.

    That's not to say that as with the legal dispute above, if Marvel launched an animated series that Fox for whatever reason thought infringed on their movie rights that Fox wouldn't take them to court so it's possible what Lane is talking about is it's complicated if they don't get official clearance from Fox on anything X-men related.

    If you read the above, a lot of the back and forth in the case (Mutant X live program) was Fox and Marvel not just referencing the 1993 agreement but various drafts of that agreement to argue intent. It also makes clear that at one point Fox did have the animation rights and those rights reverted to Marvel but that's not to say that if Fox really wanted those rights they couldn't produce some old draft of the 1993 agreement and argue the intent was for them to retain those rights and that somehow it got left out of the final agreement. In the world of high priced corporate law, the Final Agreement is not the end all be all.
    Talk about a cluster@^%! of a contract.

  5. #50
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RLAAMJR. View Post
    Please give us an all women X-men tv series.
    I doubt they would ever do that, but if they could get the women on the show right, and do this for more than one or two of them that would be great.
    "Theory: The Phoenix doesn't corrupt the characters, it corrupts the authors." Gambit, King of Thieves

  6. #51
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beezzi View Post
    Thanks for finding this again - this was the version I was looking for.

    Hey, would it be possible for you to find the paragraph where it says Fox had the animation rights at one point and post it? My eyes are killing me today and I'm not up to digging through pages of legal jargon. i'd really appreciate it.
    3. Paragraph 7 provides for (i) the sharing of merchandising rights and revenue, and the allocation of (ii) commercial tie-in rights, which are largely reserved to Fox, (iii) publication rights, which are largely reserved to Marvel, (iv) radio and live stage rights, which are largely reserved to Marvel, and (v) animated television series rights, which were held by a Fox Affiliate (Fox Children's Network) but would revert to Marvel upon the expiry of that license. (1993 Agreement 7.)
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  7. #52
    The Forever Walker remydat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    Also, I don't see why Fox would have a problem with making an animated series that wasn't directly related to their movie continuity. They don't have to pay for it. They don't have to market it. X-men gets exposure for free, which could help market their movies and TV shows if they decided to do them. So I don't see why that would be a hindrance to Marvel producing a new X-men cartoon. They still went to great lengths to produce a Spider-Man cartoon, albeit a very bad one. Considering all the resources they're pouring into these shows and the popularity that X-men still has, Marvel really has no excuse other than being overly petty with Fox.
    The relationship with Sony is a lot different. Marvel gave Sony all the movie proceeds in exchance for Sony's share of merchandising. So Sony makes 100% off of the Spider-Man movies while Marvel makes 100% off of all merchandise.

    Fox and Marvel share both movie and merchandising rights and the contract provides Fox with the right to take measures to protect against anything that would infringe on their movie rights. Mutant X had nothing to do with the X-men films either but Fox still felt it infringed on their films so saying you don't see why Fox would have a problem is somewhat irrelevant. They already showed with the Mutant X lawsuit that they indeed do have a problem with anything perceived to infringe on the film franchise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    The big question for an animated series is who owns the toy rights? Lack of toy sales is what killed Young Justice on the DC side (largely driven by 2 factors from what I have read - the toys quality sucked, and were marketed at boys even though the show had huge popularity with girls - the marketers weren't willing to adapt) and if Fox gets the money from any X-Men toys then there is no incentive for Marvel to make an X-Men animated series even if they retain the rights to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Beezzi View Post
    Marvel owns the toys rights to the cartoons. Fox can only get merch money from the live action portrayals of the characters (or to be more accurate based on likenesses of the characters as they appear in the films)...

    Which is why Fox will never see the cartoon rights again, Disney won't let go of a potential cash source even if they aren't using it.
    The complication is Fox has a share of the merchandising which while it is related to the film franchise creates a gray area. If Wolverine is say in the movie and the animated show and Marvel produces a toy Wolverine, no matter how much they dress him up to try to make clear that this is a Wolverine toy associated with the animated series, Fox could argue they are owed a cut because Wolverine appears in their film franchise and Marvel can't prove that a customer bought the toy because of the animated series rather than the movie.

    Whether they win or not, it's still cost millions in lawyers fees for Disney/Marvel to defend themselves so that has to be a factor in any decision for Disney/Marvel because again their relationship with Fox is combative at best.
    Last edited by remydat; 04-01-2015 at 10:18 AM.
    It's hard for me to listen to someone not in my position. A caterpillar can't relate to what an eagle envisions.

  8. #53
    Veteran Member Beezzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    3. Paragraph 7 provides for (i) the sharing of merchandising rights and revenue, and the allocation of (ii) commercial tie-in rights, which are largely reserved to Fox, (iii) publication rights, which are largely reserved to Marvel, (iv) radio and live stage rights, which are largely reserved to Marvel, and (v) animated television series rights, which were held by a Fox Affiliate (Fox Children's Network) but would revert to Marvel upon the expiry of that license. (1993 Agreement 7.)
    Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by remydat View Post
    The relationship with Sony is a lot different. Marvel gave Sony all the movie proceeds in exchance for Sony's share of merchandising. So Sony makes 100% off of the Spider-Man movies while Marvel makes 100% off of all merchandise.

    Fox and Marvel share both movie and merchandising rights and the contract provides Fox with the right to take measures to protect against anything that would infringe on their movie rights. Mutant X had nothing to do with the X-men films either but Fox still felt it infringed on their films so saying you don't see why Fox would have a problem is somewhat irrelevant. They already showed with the Mutant X lawsuit that they indeed do have a problem with anything perceived to infringe on the film franchise.

    The complication is Fox has a share of the merchandising which while it is related to the film franchise creates a gray area. If Wolverine is say in the movie and the animated show and Marvel produces a toy Wolverine, no matter how much they dress him up to try to make clear that this is a Wolverine toy associated with the animated series, Fox could argue they are owed a cut because Wolverine appears in their film franchise and Marvel can't prove that a customer bought the toy because of the animated series rather than the movie.

    Whether they win or not, it's still cost millions in lawyers fees for Disney/Marvel to defend themselves so that has to be a factor in any decision for Disney/Marvel because again their relationship with Fox is combative at best.
    The whole thing is so messed up....this just makes the merch debate even greyer...

  9. #54
    Veteran Member Beezzi's Avatar
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    And from Bleedingcool...

    The final nail in the cartoon rights debate:

    Why Doesn't Marvel Have An X-Men Cartoon Out?

    At the weekend at ECCC however, Newsarama reported that Marvel’s VP of Animation Development and Production and panel moderator Cort Lane told fans that “the X-Men are controlled by Fox, including the animation side”.

    Further to my investigation, I have been reliably informed that this is not true. Marvel do have the animation rights to X-Men. That the series Ultimate Spider-Man: Web Warriors, for example, has included Wolverine in this seasons shows, a character Fox definitely holds the ******action rights to. And that either Lane mispoke or Newsarama misreported.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    It is all about the toys.

    They still slip a few X-Men related characters into their general Marvel toy line but if they did an X-Men cartoon there would have to be an X-Men toy line (that is just the business of cartoons). At least an in-house cartoon. Although I am sure anyone who would want the license would also want to do X-Men specific toys, which Marvel does not seem to want to be out there.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member jawbreaker's Avatar
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    hmm, according to the article and accompanying graphic they have some kind of "Wolverine" title/liscense, maybe they would at least consider making a Wolverine animated series down the road, without the iconic X-men but maybe lesser known X-characters(or more likely Marvel characters.) Of course whatever they do would have to be worked out with Fox.

    its no wonder they dont bother with an X-men cartoon though, the whole specifics of the contract are so complicated and annoying!

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