Legacy characters: Where's the outrage for Scott Lang?

[ROSA13]

Jessica slaps Clint. Twice.

[AcesX1X]

His actions should be judged just as Pym's are. If one is forever tainted, so is the other. No double standards allowed.

but this isn't spider-man thread. this is about pym/lang.

[vitruvian]

And yet you didn't mention the time Reed slapped Sue.

He slapped Malice, not Sue. Were it not for that, sure, give him the Pym treatment too.

Context is important, otherwise we'd be slamming every male character that ever fought a female supervillain as abusive to women for that reason. But the context for the Pym and Parker incidents is similar, in each case an emotionally distraught superhero proceeded to strike their significant other (I'd say spouse were it not for OMD) in the course of an angry rant, not in the context of self-defense or subduing or 'waking up' somebody possessed by a malign entity.

[vitruvian]

but this isn't spider-man thread. this is about pym/lang.

The conversation turned to why some see Pym as eternally tainted, making it relevant whether other characters have done the same without it being constantly brought up.

To bring it back to the topic of legacy characters, how's this... the MJ back fist is as good a reason to replace Peter Parker with Miles Morales as the Janet Van Dyne slap is to replace Hank Pym with Scott Lang.

[Iron Maiden]

And yet you didn't mention the time Reed slapped Sue.

Most people who have seen the slap have never read the story and don't know the context except for what they've seen on a blog or on scans daily. The bad part about the Pym slap is that IIRC the artist misinterpreted the writer's script and it was too late to change the art to meet the deadline

Here is the entire sequence: Afterwards, Sue gets her revenge on the PsychoMan.

[Kevinroc]

I knew the context. Hence the little emoticon.

[Vegeta]

Your right, this isn't the thread to compare Pym's slap to other superheroes slaps, this is the thread to make a fallacious straw man argument using a character that assumed someone else's identity over 40 years ago (longer then some readers' entire lifespan) and question why there is no current fevered backlash over that.

Prioritize.

[Mark]

Only
Marvel showed us that Wanda was not responsible for M-Day in "Avengers Children Crusade," brought Hawkeye back to life, helped Hope restore the x-gene in AvX, and is heroing it up in Uncanny Avengers. They tried to move past it, but the fans won't let them. The fault is on the fans. How is Hank and "the pimp slap heard 'round the world" different from Wanda's predicament?

It's not that I won't let them, but in my opinion Bendis wrote a bad story using the Scarlet Witch as his prop point and in Children's Crusade they wrote an even worse story (as noted much delayed) with the Scarlet Witch as prop point, just in another direction. If they don't care enough about the character to even keep the story on time -let alone make it of sufficient quality to actually make sense- then why should I give them a pass?

[Mark]

Your right, this isn't the thread to compare Pym's slap to other superheroes slaps, this is the thread to make a fallacious straw man argument using a character that assumed someone else's identity over 40 years ago (longer then some readers' entire lifespan) and question why there is no current fevered backlash over that.

Prioritize.

I wouldn't call it a straw man argument, just someone trying to make sense out of why the modern legacy characters seem to be getting such a negative attitude while in the past they haven't. I'm sure it's something that marvel puzzles over even as it enjoys the fan anger.

[Mockingbird]

Honestly, the worst thing about Scott Lang is that, under most writers, he was ridiculously, painful uninteresting, especially in comparison to his own daughter Cassie, who far outstripped Scott in terms of popularity from the moment she became a hero in a ten issue series alone. Until recently, Scott was barely a blip on anyone's radar -- the biggest question about his ongoing was if Cassie would be coming back. Spencer made him interesting. Before that? People didn't give a crap about Scott in any form, let alone as Ant-Man.

Bad writers (and artists), as well as lazy writers who can't come up with their own stories have saddled Hank Pym with a lot of bullcrap. As a result of that, despite him being a very interesting character, a lot of writers rarely use him, or just recycle the old crap. So most people don't even know there was a previous Ant-Man, and the ones who do usually don't care.

[nnelg]

I have question for the op. Why does it bother you that some people don't like a character that you like? When I started to come to these forums most people who were on it complained non stop about Wolverine. Most of the complaints were from people who obviously didn't read his solo. It didn't bother me that other people disliked him. It shouldn't bother you that someone doesn't like what you like.

Also no matter what characters are replaced with a legacy character people will complain. And all complaints are valid whether we like it or not.

[Ptrvc]

Hank Pym and Scott Lang more closely remember Carol Danvers and Khamala Khan then they do the situation with Cap and Thor.

Scott took over an identity that Hank wasn't really using at the time anyway. There really isn't the same situation of the former hero brought low to prop the new one up. They don't Hank didn't get turned into an old man or his arm chopped off. I have seen anger from Hank fans about Scott's being pushed in the movies, but there is less of it because there is not the same feeling of Hank being humiliated in the process. Also his fanbase is pretty small compared to Thor or Cap.

[ed2962]

Well, I don't think that the OP is trying to suggest that the only reason someone might not like Sam/Cap or She-Thor or any new hero is because of sexism/racism

And yeah, with the particular hero the OP mentioned, no version of Ant Man has every been popular, so a person could make a case that it's a least part of the reason there's less fan outrage over Scott ( plus 30+yrs is enuff time for older fans to get over it).

I think what the OP is trying to get at is that while there's fan outrage/disappointment when a white character replaces another white character, you don't get the same sort of repeated phrases and terms. With other characters fans will just say, "I prefer Wally to Barry" or "Hal is better than Kyle" or "so-and-so is boring." With certain other characters you cries of "agenda pushing," or "lazy writers" or suggesting that somehow now legacy characters are some sort of insult . I know it's not everyone, but it's interesting that certain comments keep being used.

[Gordonstar]

Jessica slaps Clint. Twice.

Meanie. Tsk.

[Iron Maiden]

I think the OP has to remember that in the old days, there wasn't this instant feedback from the fans. The comics depended on snail mail for any fan feedback and we would have to go by whatever anecdotal input you could get from the people who were working at Marvel at any given time. Even with that you would have to rely on someone's memory...and Stan Lee's can be pretty sketchy for one. Who even knows if they opened every single letter. Who knows how many people may have been ticked off about Ben Reilly replacing Peter Parker or Captain Marvel dying and Carol having his name, etc.