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  1. #4246
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    of course, though for now they're just taped to the wall in the sleeves.

  2. #4247
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    this is only tangentially related to Loki, but I'm trying to sort out my thoughts on things and this is as good a place to do that as any. Been thinking about Avengers. And the Celestials in particular. and parasites. and the Black Death. and Ghost. And I think i can see what's going on here. Or at least I have it narrowed down to a couple possibilities.

    In universe chronological order of events, these are what I have picked out as particularly relevant pieces of information. Not everything that happened, just the stuff that i think holds clues as to what the Final host are doing and what they are, and what Loki is doing. There is a lot going on here, and i think some of it is easy to miss among the noise, this is just to help trim the fat to the bare essentials.

    - 1 million years ago, there was the First Host, Celestials arrived and experimented on early hominids, creating the Deviants and Eternals. Or at least that is established canon. But shortly before those Celestials arrived, Odin and co. killed another Celestial, but this one was deranged somehow. Agamotto said it seemed like it was 'searching for something' and that it 'seems almost rabid, as if infected'. In the present, as Star Brand is fighting Ghost Rider, he mentions the First Host, as well as the 'Great Fall'. He also says the world was 'cursed' because of that incident, something Loki also alludes to.

    - Time passes, the 2nd through 4th hosts come and go, among other things.

    - In the present, Ghost Rider and Star Brand fight over the Fallen, and Star Brand says "the sleeper will wake (done)... the horde will feed... (bugs, i presume, 'feeding' just beginning) The Host... the Final host will... " and then he died. Both those two and Iron fist and Dr Strange also mention dreams of the million BC team.

    - Loki then approaches the Fallen, and though it is unclear in the Legacy issue, we now know he teleports it away and becomes besties with it. And I suspect makes it into a magic cost sink.

    - Loki becomes Sorcerer Supreme, reboots magic, warns Strange about the Final Host among other things.

    - Loki uses the Celestial to threaten Odin, in order to get the ball rolling on assembling the Avengers. Odin calls in Black Panther to warn him, and asks that he kill Loki, but T'Challa refuses.

    - Black Panther and Dr Strange go investigate the cave the Celestial used to be in, find a cave full of bug eggs that begin hatching.

    - Dead Celestials begin falling from the sky, Avengers get to assembling

    - Tony says that his scans of the Final Host seem like he is reading 'thousands of different life-forms inside' and that they are 'definitely not your grandfather's celestials' to which Loki says that they are 'more your grandfather's than you could possibly imagine'

    - She-Hulk approaches one of the Celestials that fell from the sky, one of the classic Kirby creations, Eson. Bugs spill out of it, and it telepathically tells her to find the 'cure' before teleporting her to Robbie.

    - Loki's caption here says that they (people, but possibly super powered people in particular) are 'celestial madness made flesh' and that the final Host has 'returned with the cure'

    - Eson gets up and begins fighting the Final Host, just as one of them is about to vaporize cap, but Death just cuts off his head.

    - Loki shows up at the end, saying that the Final host is there to 'avenge the greatest wrong of all time... and correct the grievous mistake they made one million years ago'

    So we can glean a few things from all that, and it can help point us in the right direction here.

    - The Final Host is here to avenge a wrong (from their perspective).
    - It is the Final Host that's filled with bugs, or at least life forms, according to Tony's scans.
    - The Fallen, then, was likely part of the group the Final Host comes from, since it was also filled with bugs, which then bred deep in the earth.
    - The Final Host killed the classic Kirby Celestials, so there is a conflict among Celestials with the Earth caught in the middle
    - Eson mentioned a 'cure' and Agamotto remarked that the Fallen seemed 'rabid' so that seems to imply there is a disease/infection involved here.
    - Agamotto also said that the First Host, which Eson was among, was NOT infected, so if Eson was infected, this is a recent development, maybe the bugs weren't swarming out of him, they were swarming over him. Unfortunately the art is very unclear here.

    so! Basically, what I think is going on here is a Celestial plague in the form of parasites that can alter the mind of their host, and everyone has been interpreting the word 'Host' when it comes to the Dark Celestials kinda wrong all this time. Host could mean 'a group' as it has been used with the Celestials, but it could also mean a host for a parasite. Parasites often occupy several different hosts in their life cycles, and the one they breed and usually die in is 'the final host' in their lifecycle. It's also known in nature for some parasites to influence their host's behaviour. Usually by creating zombies that sacrifice themselves up to the next host in the parasite's life cycle chain. It's kinda horrifying. Usually only happens with insects though, because their minds are very simple. They sacrifice themselves up to birds, the parasites breed in the bird's digestive system, the eggs are deposited in the bird's droppings, which are consumed by insects, and the cycle begins anew. But this is comics, so let's say these parasites have much more control over their hosts. So anyway, this has led to two factions, which have been present for at least a million years. This Fallen Celestial in particular, but probably others as well, was already infected with something a million years ago, and it was also searching for something under the ground. Not entirely sure what, though perhaps it was simply digging for a place for the eggs to... you know, hatch.... and the team a million years ago unwittingly gave it exactly what it needed when they buried it. The eggs laid dormant until the Fallen was able to call for the final Host to arrive for it's... children... The Final Host is needed for the bugs to take over new hosts. I can only see 2 steps here, though there may be something i am missing. Celestial, which deposits eggs somehow, which hatch into insects which then need new Celestial armor to occupy. It feels like there should be a middle step here, but maybe not. I am not even sure the armor needs to be filled with a living being though, if the Celestials can even be considered living in the biological sense the first place. I think the Final Host was dumping the bodies on Earth for the bugs to occupy. I mean, why kill them and then go to all the trouble of dumping them on Earth? why not just leave them floating in space? Because the bugs need the armor to live in. they're like... hermit crabs, thousands of them sharing one shell.

    The Great Fall seems to be a new addition. But Star Brand refers to the Celestial as 'the Fallen' so it could simply be referring to that. But Given Aaron's fondness for religious (specifically Christian) allusion in his stories, he could be setting the Celestials up as angels, one group of which 'fell'. This seems to fit with Horsemen of the Apocalypse parallels in the Final Host, one of them is carrying a scythe for crying out loud, it's pretty blatant, and there were 3 of them, the Fallen makes 4. I mean... Death is obvious, the Fallen would likely be Pestilence, I presume triangle-face would be War, making green-flames (who, incidentally, has the same shape to his head as the bugs) Famine. But the Four Horsemen have a lot of wiggle room in their interpretations, they can be read as representing a number of different things, those are just the most popular interpretations... But it may also be referring to Humanity... But either way, we can infer that the Dark Celestials are not a new thing, they were around back during the First Host, since the Fallen is trying to call them, and it seems was likely part of them.

    As an aside about triangle-face, though it is a triangle most of the time, the face pattern does change for one panel when he is pulling apart Cap's Quinjet, so it is not fixed, and is likely communication of some kind, but I don't know what it means. but i'm reminded of Alchemical symbols, though maybe have just been listening/watching to too much Ghost. Though, on that note, Death's look is VERY reminiscent of the Nameless Ghouls first outfits, but that is likely just because they are both based on clerical robes because Ghost is also dripping in subversive Christian imagery. and... come to think of it... swap out rats for bugs... But that's just because they are drawing from the same source.

  3. #4248
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    the above isn't that hard to piece together from the books, it's beyond that where we really get into speculation.

    As for the 'wrong' they are trying to correct.... Okay, so we aren't exactly sure how long after the first Celestial the First Host actually was. Presumably 1,000,000 BCE was not an exact date, and there's some rounding there giving some wiggle room which could be anywhere from days to centuries. We know Ghost Rider got himself a new mammoth though, so there was SOME time between the two. So here's my thought. There was a plan there for the Dark Celestials to beat the Kirby Celestials a million years ago, but Odin and co. beat the snot out of the herald that was making things ready for their arrival, and spoiled their plans. The team buried it, giving it exactly what it needed to breed, (if they had pinned it to the moon like Odin wanted, the bugs may have all died) but it wasn't able to call to it's allies in time to defeat the Kirby Celestials, and it and the eggs laid dormant for millennia. While it 'slept' the Kirby Celestials came and went doing their experiments on humanity, but the Dark Celestials see this as some kind of an affront, they don't like this. And so they are trying to complete what they started a million years ago, and wipe out the Kirby Celestials AND their 'experiments' (humanity) It is also possible that the Celestial Odin and co. killed somehow tainted humanity, and they want to undo that... by wiping humanity out.

    And that brings us to Loki. What in the hell is he doing? Even at his worst, assuming for a second he really is helping wipe out all life on earth (which I don't think he is, but let's pretend) he was never about wiping out humanity. His plots were often fairly wide reaching, but there was more subtlety to them than global genocide, his plots were usually more... personal. So even assuming he's acting genuinely as the villain, this seems extreme for him. But it also just doesn't line up with how Aaron himself has been writing Loki. If it was inconsistent with other writers, it would be unfortunate, but you could understand it happening. But why would Aaron contradict his own characterization for Loki? Just toss everything he’s done with the character out the window? Especially when the solicits and covers for his upcoming Thor books have Thor, Loki, and Balder (and Thori!) teaming up? Why would Thor agree to work with Loki if he had just done something as bad as trying to destroy the planet? Why tell Odin about the Final Host if he intended for it to succeed? Why fix magic, thereby giving everyone a fighting chance? No, things just aren’t lining up here for him being the actual villain, it makes no sense. All it did was get the ball rolling on a defense, a surprise attack would have been far more effective. So it stands to reason that the intent WAS to get the defense going, his dialogue supports that too. But they are assembled now, so what is he gaining by continuing to play the big bad and ham it up for the Avengers rather than do things from the shadows?

    I am still having trouble figuring out his end game. I am not sure how he intends to win this, since simply siccing the Avengers on the Dark Celestials doesn't seem like it's doing much. I presume Robbie is instrumental to winning judging on solicits and the fact that Eson teleported Jen to him when asking for a cure. I just can't see HOW.
    Last edited by Raye; 05-26-2018 at 06:25 AM.

  4. #4249
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    I think the issue is, what does Loki want from the Final Host? Is he trying to stop them just for the sake of stopping them? Or because he needs something from them as well and it's just easier to get it like this?

    Also, he might be able to get that without the Avengers, but it's easier to manipulate the story with the Avengers in it and he gets the added benefit of potentially patching things up with Thor.

    But you're right, even at his worst, Loki didn't really try and kill everyone at least until Ragnorok and even then he wasn't actually trying and trying to kill everything. Of course, given the nature of Loki's powers, he might actually be talking to us, the audience, to try and get us to think he was evil, though that just is more confusing.

    Joy meta comics!

  5. #4250
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I don't think he wants anything from the Final Host. From the sounds of things, this was inevitable. He may have changed the timetable of them arriving, but he did not create this situation, Odin did, long before Loki was ever born, Loki is just cleaning up his mess. I also don't think he's too concerned with patching things up with Thor if he's doing this by playing the bad guy. We don't know that he even has a 'i was on your side all along!' reveal planned, and even if he does, I doubt Thor will react too well to that. If he wants to patch things up with Thor, there has to be better ways to go about it. I think he just sees something that needs to be done, and he's using the tools and skills he has available to him to accomplish that. He said himself that what he wants is to 'save the world' so what he wants is the same thing the Avengers want, he's just going about it in a proactive way, while they are reactive. I know it's natural to think Loki wants something for himself, because he usually DOES want something for himself from anything he does. But I think the point here is that he is being selfless for once, despite using some questionable and awful seeming methods. By playing the bad guy, he's throwing away the things he wants the most for himself (to not be the bad guy, and acceptance from his family) in order to save the world. If he has a self serving ulterior motive, then that kinda falls apart.

    And I am sure they want the audience to think he's turned heel again, if they didn't they wouldn't be playing things so close to the vest with him the past few years. But I think we have to back away from the meta nature of his powers being able to manipulate the story on the page like that. Though he's made some mention of stories and the like, he has not actually done anything like that since Agent of Asgard ended. They just don't seem to be going that way with him, I very much doubt he is breaking the fourth wall. He is leaning on it with the captions, but just a bit, captions are kinda nebulous territory, and he may have been talking to another character who wasn't shown. Ewing may have intended that sort of thing, but they seem to have backed off on that. I don't think Marvel wants too many characters able to do that at once, and that is Gwenpool's territory right now, and I think we just have to accept that. (even though it does kind of piss me off that it kind of means he had his win yanked away) Meta/fourth wall kinda stuff tends to come and go with characters, and sometimes just... goes. She-Hulk used to be allllllll about smashing the 4th Wall, and now she's not, Deadpool it comes and goes, so it may return in the future. But right now? I wouldn't count on it. Granted, though it is seeming pretty likely right now that he does know something about the future, we don't know exactly how. It MIGHT have something to do with reading the story. But there have been two other explanations that seem more likely to me. King Loki's memories, OR the time gems from the Gates of Valhalla thing. If he uses his 'god of Stories' thing, i think it will likely be restricted to basically being very genre savvy.
    Last edited by Raye; 05-27-2018 at 05:12 AM.

  6. #4251
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    So I just wanted to say I LOVED today's issue of Thor. It was fun, it feels like there is forward momentum again, Loki seems to finally be stepping out of the 'playing bad guy' role, it set up some interesting situations, the family drama ranged from sweet to sad, the brother squabble/brawl was great, Aaron handled Loki super well, Del Mundo's art is gorgeous, he is a perfect fit for the book, and he draws Loki really well. So yeah, really liked it. these pages in particular, one of which is jsut a link becuase of image posting restrictions:

    https://i.imgur.com/w32ZO7q.jpg?1



    awwww. it's nice to see Freyja's cooled down and is worried about Loki.

    Thor, not so much... he was NOT pleased to see Loki. at all. But it ended in a funny way, with Loki trying to teleport Thor to Hel and Thor dragging him along:





    Really tho, i was kinda tempted to post the whole boat scene.

    So, the main question that comes to mind as far as Loki goes is what is it Loki wants? If he just wanted one of the artifacts, he was right there in Thor's boat, and not like Thor seemed particularly concerned with organizing or securing them, he could have just stolen it, likely with Thor none the wiser, if it was small enough. So I'm thinking he wants something more intangible. A favor, or something. Or maybe just Thor's forgiveness.

    Also wondering where this comes in relation to Avengers. Which one takes place first? figuring that out could help pinpoint where the story is headed. If Thor takes place first, and Loki and Thor make up some, which is where it seems to be headed, then Loki's Celestial ploy would be seen as more of a betrayal. If Avengers takes place first, it might explain why Thor remains so mad with him, but it would kinda have to mean that Loki's true motives won't come to light in that story.

    And on another note, this new Asgardians of the Galaxy series. sounds fun, and I will be checkingit out no matter what. But it occurs to me, it says it's spinning out of the whole Infinity thing, and while it may have just meant the fact that the Guardians of the Galaxy are dissolving, and the Asgardians are taking their place... I mean, there is only one Asgardian in that story... So I am wondering if Loki is in the armor or is the one who sent them on their mission. In an interview, Cullen Bunn said that there was another member that would be revealed later who would 'baffle and surprise' readers, and that that they would be the one setting the Asgardians on their mission. The wording was unclear if he meant the reveal of whoever was piloting the Destroyer (which is missing an arm, so looks like Thor's getting a new arm soon) or someone else. But either way, Loki could fit that. but it does definitely seem that it will be spinning out of Thor as much as it is Infinity whatever, since Skurge is there, and it looks as though if he's gonna be resurrected, it's going to be in the next few issues of Thor.
    Last edited by Raye; 06-13-2018 at 10:27 AM.

  7. #4252
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    "I'm not your enemy. Well, I am, but not at this instant." Classic. I agree with the recommendation--it was a good issue, and not only for the parts with Loki, although I loved their interaction. Overall, it was hilarious, but mostly due to circumstance and some of the supporting characters.

    I also agree that Loki might want something intangible from Thor. Since he says that Thor won't believe him, it's almost assuredly something non-evil, too. I was thinking along similar lines to Raye--he might just want his brother back. Freya being concerned about Loki was cute, and her saying that there was more to him than it appeared hopefully means something -- it's important to remember that Aaron's portrayal of Freya has been almost completely different from Ewing's, and she's been shown to be very wise. I'm still wondering why he gave Malekith the secrets of the bifrost (first issue). Gaining his trust might be one thing, but mass teleportation op. I'm hoping that it's flawed somehow and mysteriously 'malfunctions' after Malekith decides to use it to expedite troop movements.


    Where it occurs relative to the Avengers...not sure. I don't know if Thor will be able to take time away from the war to go be an Avenger. However, if we're right about Loki, then I expect his motivations to be revealed in both books about the same time.

    I'll admit, sometimes I feel like a conspiracy theorist when it comes to Loki. At least, I have been lately. But then I remind myself it doesn't mesh with Cates' portrayal or even Aaron's portrayal in Legacy, and Aaron is his primary writer atm. Well, I guess it means that he's tricking someone, at least, which is appropriate, whether us or everyone else

  8. #4253
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    It's a bit odd that it felt so funny, even though there were tragic aftermaths of various events all throughout the issue. Heimdall's blindness, the destruction of the Bifrost, Asgardian refugees in the Bronx, the fallout from Loki's actions with both Thor and Freyja, Jane and Volstagg still in rough shape, though the situation with Freyja, Jane and Volstagg at least seem to be improving. I didn't feel the humor felt off, though.

    Yeah, Loki designing/building the Dark Bifrost is still a concern for me, I'm waiting to see what the explanation is, there. But it is possible he's tapping into that right now, to teleport Thor to Hel. He may have foreseen the real Bifrost's destruction, and while he could see no way to prevent it, he could manipulate Malekith into building a new one. I mean, if the Dark Bifrost hadn't been built, it's possible Thor would still be on Earth right now. Now we have to see if he has a way to prevent Malekith from using it now so it can be returned to Asgard.

    And I think Loki's portrayal has been pretty consistent, it's just that you have to keep in mind that he's got some bigger scheme going, and that sometimes requires he put on an act or do.... questionable things, towards his larger goal. It's just not clear yet exactly what that larger goal is. He did say 'save the world' in Legacy, but that's pretty vague. Save it from what? how?

    New pic btw, a variant cover by Dauterman for what I assume to be the next issue of Thor, given what's shown in the image, even if the caption says '???'



    So we get Dauterman's Loki and Thor one last time

    OH YEAH! speaking of funny, I was gonna share this earlier, but forgot:

    https://imgur.com/gallery/6ihlHrw

    Hilarious. Though I think some of them are questionable, but not like every single one counts for any of the others, either.
    Last edited by Raye; 06-13-2018 at 04:02 PM.

  9. #4254
    Mighty Member responsarbre's Avatar
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    I just read Vote Loki, and I've got to say, I really liked it. I don't know why I passed on it at the time. I think Hastings did an awesome job with the god of stories character direction.

  10. #4255
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    I really loved this issue! It was fun and yes, pretty sad in spots. I especially love the dissonance between Freya and Loki. I personally feel like Aaron hasn't done the worst job with Freya. He's certainly not painted her in the kindest light recently. And it's nice to see that what she did to Loki is taking its toll on her. I know that the House of Odin has always had their problems, but it's never felt splintered off. Odin isn't telling anyone anything but obviously feels the loss of his family quite hard. Then you have Thor...Dear God, poor Thor...and Freya and Loki and poor Baldur always gets shafted. I've said it before, but if Freya and Odin had to pick between Baldur and Loki, they would probably pick Loki and then come up with some excuse about why they had to pick Loki.

    I'm not sure if Loki really needs a Brifrost the way everyone else does. We've seen him use his magic to travel vast distances before. It's not something we've ever really seen him struggle with. Now, he might have trouble bringing whole armies with him, but I think he's more concerned with Malekith not getting such magic for himself.

  11. #4256
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah, Vote Loki was pretty good, though I think it could have done with another issue or two, and kind of a shame about the art being... Not great.

    I think Freyja is coming from a place of disappointment with both Thor and Loki rather than her being particularly upset about how she had acted. If she was, she would have asked Thor to pass on her apologies rather than tell him not to mention she had asked about Loki. But I think it's her stubborn and proud streak coming through as well. I said in another thread that I think Aaron is going with the idea that Freyja reacts in kinda extreme ways in the moment, but then cools down and takes a more measured attitude, and that is mostly what is going on here. I think she is sad that Loki is not the man she knows he is capable of being, and also sad that Thor can't seem to forgive him this time. She wants her family to be happy.

    I think a major theme of this final chapter of Aaron's Thor will be forgiveness. I think everyone in the family will have to forgive someone in order to move past things and mend the family.

    There is a difference between teleporting over long distances and traveling between Realms, though. If there wasn't, then Thor could have gone to any magic user of sufficient power to allow him to go to the different Realms, not like Loki would be the only one able to do that, if this was simple magic. Loki has also had to use the Bifrost in the past despite his ability to teleport. I think the spell is more him accessing the power of the Bifrost remotely rather than having to have someone, Malekith's version of Heimdall, having to activate it. And if he was concerned about Malekith not getting that magic, he wouldn't have given Malekith the knowledge to build the Dark Bifrost in the first place. Malekith already has it, and is using it, and it is because of Loki. What we need is a reason why he did that. Creating a backup Bifrost for when the real one was destroyed would do that, assuming he put something in there to allow him to regain control of it.

  12. #4257
    Spectacular Member A Silver Quickly's Avatar
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    I'm on board with the forgiveness idea. It seems like that's the big set up here, that each of them are being stubborn and grudgy about one (or more) of the others. I don't think they'll ever be back together as a family, but I suspect that the self-destructive tendencies all of them have through the grudges will somehow come to a head and they'll have to forgive themselves and each other. On the other hand, I don't know that they all really deserve forgiveness just yet.

    There's also the Cul factor here. He's back, but for no apparent story reason just yet, but due to his history, personality, and relationships here, I suspect he'll play a big role in whatever brings the forgiveness plotline to crisis. I'm not sure if he'll pull some super evil thing or somehow actually redeem himself to provide an example, but I bet it's one of the two.

  13. #4258
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    I'm not sure Loki means for Malekith to keep the Dark Bifrost, at least for long. I think he mostly gave it to Malekith to prove his loyalty to Malekith and to Laufey, both of whom still clearly intend to murder him any ways. However, I also assume that Loki know how long it will take for Malekith to build the damn thing and any flaws it might have. The issue is just how does Malekith intend to cross Loki?

    We know that Loki has his plans for the leaders of the Dark Council, but just what does Malekith have in store for Loki?

  14. #4259
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    *snip*
    Not so long ago I would have been all for learning this lore and making sense of it, even if I had to read a dozen different books, but knowing that all of this will be ignored or retconned from continuity soon discourages me...

  15. #4260
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Silver Quickly View Post
    I'm on board with the forgiveness idea. It seems like that's the big set up here, that each of them are being stubborn and grudgy about one (or more) of the others. I don't think they'll ever be back together as a family, but I suspect that the self-destructive tendencies all of them have through the grudges will somehow come to a head and they'll have to forgive themselves and each other. On the other hand, I don't know that they all really deserve forgiveness just yet.

    There's also the Cul factor here. He's back, but for no apparent story reason just yet, but due to his history, personality, and relationships here, I suspect he'll play a big role in whatever brings the forgiveness plotline to crisis. I'm not sure if he'll pull some super evil thing or somehow actually redeem himself to provide an example, but I bet it's one of the two.
    I've always wondered why Cul was brought back, I mean, he was dead, there was no reason for him to be brought back to life when Loki went to get Odin, they could have just left him rotting. I have been waiting on the payoff for that for a while, but think it got backburnered with a lot of the other plots over the last year or so. So hopefully it will move forward again, with all the other stuff. One thing I find interesting there though, with all the forgiveness stuff, is that he is there because Odin forgave him. No one else did, but Odin did, and that's why he's back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I'm not sure Loki means for Malekith to keep the Dark Bifrost, at least for long. I think he mostly gave it to Malekith to prove his loyalty to Malekith and to Laufey, both of whom still clearly intend to murder him any ways. However, I also assume that Loki know how long it will take for Malekith to build the damn thing and any flaws it might have. The issue is just how does Malekith intend to cross Loki?

    We know that Loki has his plans for the leaders of the Dark Council, but just what does Malekith have in store for Loki?
    I don't think Loki intends for Malekith to keep it either. Now that we've seen that the regular Bifrost was destroyed, and if it's to be rebuilt it will likely take a while, I don't think it's a case of building one of these things in a few days. So, if we go with the likely scenario that Loki has seen the future, I think he got Malekith to build it for him partly to prove his loyalty, but that's more of a side effect, he could have done other things to prove his loyalty, I think it was mostly because intends to steal it back from Malekith for Asgard to use. This presents the problem that it means Malekith has had access to it all this time (we know he's had it since at least the Shi'ar stuff) which may mean the War has spread further than it would have otherwise, but it also means the Asgardians (aside from a few) are no longer cut off from the other realms.

    It also occurs to me that, with Heimdall blinded, Loki is their only real source of information on what Malekith is up to. It's not just that the Bifrost is gone that's causing the problem, it's as much if not more that Heimdall has been blinded. That may be part of why Loki's embedded himself in the Dark council for so long, again assuming he has some future knowledge that he is working with which is looking more and more likely. With Heimdall no longer able to just see what Malekith is up to with a glance, they need to rely on other methods to determine where Malekith is going to strike next. Sure, Thor could have probably found some other way to teleport to another realm before this, but without any way to know what is going on, teleporting around at random isn't going to accomplish much, what's he going to do, port around at random until he bumps into an army? That seems pretyt inefficient and not likely to accomplish a lot. You need to have a plan to be effective, and you can't have a plan if you don't even know what's going on, and no real way to find out. They can send Sif out to scout, but that could take a long time. Loki though, is in a position to know pretty much everything Malekith is doing. He already sicced Jane on some Frost Giants thanks to his inside knowledge (though he lied to her about how he knew) and we know from solicits that they will be facing the Queen of Cinders in Hel, and that variant cover up above seems to support this. And we did see Loki accompany Malekith to a meeting with the Queen of Cinders so presumably that's how he learned where she would attack, and why he sent Thor (and inadvertently himself) there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Habis View Post
    Not so long ago I would have been all for learning this lore and making sense of it, even if I had to read a dozen different books, but knowing that all of this will be ignored or retconned from continuity soon discourages me...
    The Celestial stuff? while it is entirely possible it will be retconned or ignored, (and I mean, it is in itself is a retcon, but as far as i can see not in a way that dramatically alters past events, it just adds a new elements that were hiding under the surface) that happened quite recently with Dr Strange where the new arc is overtly ignoring at the very least Donny Cates' run, possibly Aaron's as well. But I don't think it is a foregone conclusion... this was a very heavily promoted storyline, which ought to give it some staying power (much to some's chagrin, I imagine) also, it deals with Celestials which don't come up all that frequently, so...
    Last edited by Raye; 06-15-2018 at 02:40 PM.

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